**Meeting Transcript**
*Date: April 16–17, 2026 | Duration: 1:04:52*
*Participants: Jennie Eckstrom, Florence Shum*
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:00:00]
I think… I'm not sure, I think it might… it might just be you.
**Florence Shum** [00:00:04]
Oh my god.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:00:04]
I'm just kidding.
**Florence Shum** [00:00:05]
Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:00:06]
You might get a one-on-one.
**Florence Shum** [00:00:08]
Oh, nice! Yay! But, you know, I like to listen to other people, too, you know? Like, you learn from others, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:00:16]
I totally get it. I totally get it. So it's nice to have a blend of all of them, but I think with this day being just another bonus day this week. It may or may not have lined up with other schedules, so…
**Florence Shum** [00:00:30]
Okay, yeah, I mean, I think I don't have too much. I have, let me see here. So, I don't want to keep you too long, either. Let me just…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:00:41]
No, no, no, no, I'm here for you. So, I'd love to hear… Where you are at, and… Maybe the… some of the progress you've made, and maybe some of the sticking points.
**Florence Shum** [00:00:52]
So I had my, I'm trying to look for that file. My manager, like, runs some of those, like, service line numbers. Right? And then, which… the f- The interesting is that, like, for whatever reason, like, oh, she explained it this way, like, so we have… let's say we have… we did, like, a thousand studies of whatever service that we had, and then with X amount, right? But she's like, but that's not always… like, when you run the… how much it generated, it doesn't… necessarily correlate exactly, which I understand, right? Because… Yeah. Receive, it's, like, months before. So, if you have a busy December, you will have a busier January and February. The money comes in much later. So I said, that's fine, but at least we know, like, how many of those studies that we do in a year, you know, that sort of thing. So, like, so the EMR, And the way we track is still a little bit off.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:01:56]
So…
**Florence Shum** [00:01:57]
I have my staff also track, like, each study that they do monthly, like, how many, so it's just easier, I know. instead of the EMR running it, so this is just easier for them to keep track of things, and making.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:02:11]
Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:02:11]
things are not falling through the cracks, I'm finishing all the reports. And things like that. So, And then, I still have some trouble running the denial stuff, and so I asked my office manager, she wasn't sure either. So… But I have an appointment on Monday, like, I'm meeting Zoom… I'm doing a Zoom meeting with They call it, like, a customer, like, success manager, I think, like, on the internet itself. So then I would be able to ask her how to run certain things. Yeah. Because the previous person that I had was not very good at these reports. And she would tell me to create, you know, like, a case, like, you know. do the one-to-one coaching kind of thing. They provide that too, one-on-one coaching with, like, expert in that, whatever area that we have trouble with.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:03:16]
Wow.
**Florence Shum** [00:03:16]
How do you also schedule that as well on the. But this success manager, I think she'll be able to help me with some of these things. So I'm excited, like, you know, just running certain reports, yeah, so it's… Going the right direction, just have more clarity in terms of, like, You know, the claims and stuff, and and also, trying to… oh my god, we had to pay the taxes, right? I was like, oh my god. Scrambling! Oh my god! But, I mean, we always have to file an extension, but we still have to pay, right? But the number was so off, like, from what we expected, we had to tell the accountant, like, two… literally two days before, he's like, hey, we got the… I think we got the Black Swan stuff, like, a little late, too, right? Like, a couple of days? Like, was it, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:04:16]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:04:16]
So even this, like, I think it was just last week, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:04:19]
Yeah, no.
**Florence Shum** [00:04:20]
And then, like, so there were some other things that… Roger also received, like, really late, without really an actual thing, and then they just said they're still, like, finalizing all the numbers. So… but we gave them that, and then they were able to, like, correct it, and then I was telling Roger, I was like. I don't know, something tells me that it's still probably not very accurate, right? But, like, I don't think… they calculated, like, deducted, like, all my equipment that I bought from last year.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:04:53]
Oh, okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:04:54]
Yeah, people…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:04:55]
Whether they took that all at once, or They needed to put it on their depreciation schedule.
**Florence Shum** [00:05:00]
Yeah, so I need to, like, you know, we need to check on that, because I realized that what I sent them was just the agreement for each loan, right? But then the loan itself doesn't have the total amount, so it was just the monthly amount. Okay. So unless they're actually looking into the detail and calculating actually how much that whole thing is. they wouldn't really know, like, the total amount, so I don't know if they would actually do that, right? I think they would just file it and, like, call it a day.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:05:31]
Yeah. Well, and having that conversation of, okay, what data do you need from me so that you know that this is an asset that needs to be depreciated versus it just being a bill? Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:05:47]
Yeah, that's why I have to clarify to make sure that they understand that, because I literally… got it so that I can… use it as deductions. Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:05:57]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:05:57]
Or… yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:05:59]
You had it on your property in Q2… in Q4 of 25?
**Florence Shum** [00:06:04]
Yeah, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:06:05]
Now you're paying them a note. Right? You're paying… are you paying the company, or are you buying it from the company?
**Florence Shum** [00:06:13]
I am… buying it from the company, but I… I have, like, a third-party… like, bank to… to do it, like, but I think in the future, I should just… I should just work on the financing with the… so, what happened was, I got one. So I did one equipment first, and then, and then… and then I had, like, I bought two more equipment that are different, right? If you make it easier, I'll just put everything in, like, with one place. New Lane, New Lane… Whatever, like, the bank. But I think it's more confusing, because they charge, like, documentation fee? They charge, like, application… I was like, what? Why do I have to pay that? Like… So that was annoying, like, Yeah, so I… and then I have to provide my insurance. Like, my business insurance? Otherwise, they are charging monthly fee, for the equipment.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:07:19]
Mmm…
**Florence Shum** [00:07:20]
Like, insurance, for insurance, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:07:22]
Oh, gotcha.
**Florence Shum** [00:07:24]
Yeah, so I was like, hmm, that is kind of annoying. So then I need… more work for me. I have to tell my, you know, like, my broker to, like. Do that document, and, like, then submit it, and… and things like that.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:07:42]
Yeah. Yeah, so… so how to pass on your documentation to your accountant in a way that they understand what you have purchased. Do you guys do a… do you do a meeting with your accountant in November?
**Florence Shum** [00:07:57]
So we… so the other thing is that we also switch accountants.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:08:02]
Oh…
**Florence Shum** [00:08:03]
I think in the… fall? I think it's, like, last quarter, too. We also switched accounting. So it's a lot of information, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:08:12]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:08:13]
The transition time, it's like… the toughest.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:08:17]
Well, so hopefully, once you've had a chance to… to… You've done your prepay, which was your Q1 prepay, which is painful and makes all of us want to throw up a little bit in our mouth. But…
**Florence Shum** [00:08:31]
And on top of the, like, everything, right? The taxes for 2025, it's fine. They… I… I'm hoping that we get a refund.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:08:40]
Or, if anything, you, you then have less to pay quarterly for the rest of the year.
**Florence Shum** [00:08:48]
Yeah, so we will… I think we will set up a… like, we wait… I think the accountant, the firm already sent out an email that they're all kind of taking a vacation for a week, like… Yeah. I'm sure they all need it, so we'll probably get in touch with them, like, in the next month or two, when things kind of calm down, and then when we have Like, more finalized number. Right? With, like, you know, because there's some just estimates as well, so then… Yeah. …then talk about it. But they seem to be good, though, like, better than my previous accountant, like, much more organized. Like, Roger was, like, messaging them all the time, like, asking questions, like. It's a… the communication was really good, I have to say. Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:09:38]
Good.
**Florence Shum** [00:09:39]
So, positive, so we'll see, we'll see. And then hopefully, like, next year would just be easier, right? Because it's, like, kind of like the same things, and…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:09:48]
They should have it then on their radar of, like, is there any equipment that you purchased this year that we need to, you know, like, almost having, like, a pre-tax planner?
**Florence Shum** [00:09:59]
Yeah, and this… Yeah, they do have that as well, that we did, and then now they have… now they just need update, right, each year. It would be a little bit easier. And they're so organized that if we need to… change accountant in the future? It'll be easy, like, these are all the files, here you go, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:10:19]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:10:20]
So, it makes it a little easier. Yeah, and then… And, The other thing is, like, I'm still trying to hire. Not much motion there, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:10:37]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:10:38]
in terms of recruiters, like, so I signed, within the recruiting firm. Right? So, you know, obviously they only make money if they can place somebody, right? So… Is it okay for me to work with… Like, more than one firm. you know, like, recruiting… Do they?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:11:00]
We have an exclusivity clause? They shouldn't, I mean, I think…
**Florence Shum** [00:11:06]
I don't think so.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:11:07]
You shouldn't, so…
**Florence Shum** [00:11:10]
So, maybe.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:11:11]
I would just be upfront with them, like, I mean, you would probably want to have one that was, you know, looking in the same… geographic…
**Florence Shum** [00:11:22]
Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:11:23]
area. And you're, are you advertising also, like, on Indeed and.
**Florence Shum** [00:11:31]
I tried indeed, like, before. We didn't do it for too long, because it was kind of expensive.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:11:37]
Is that expensive? Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:11:38]
You know? And, so I… Did it just to see if there were people looking. on Indeed. And, and there weren't even, like, much candidates. I think I got in touch with one person who is… kind of interested in more, like, per diem work, and just re-EEGs. Oh, okay, I mean… I actually even met with her, like, she came to my office, we met, like, But then she… I think she lives kind of far from my office. It would take her an hour each way. to come see patients in my office, so I think, ultimately, she didn't want that kind of lifestyle, whereas she's… She's, like, $10.99, she just won't… 1099, and… She's working for the hospital now, like, you know, a few… like, once or twice a week kind of thing, and then the other time she's… just reading EEGs remotely, so she has more autonomy that way. So, there wasn't much on Indeed, and I haven't posted on LinkedIn, because I'm actually… I'm not active on LinkedIn, too. So that's the other thing. Yeah, so I don't know. Where all these people are.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:12:59]
Yeah. Do you go to, like, any of your society meetings? Do you… are there publications where…
**Florence Shum** [00:13:09]
I do, I go to the society meeting. I didn't go to the New York one. Interestingly, the president of the New York, like, Neurology Association, whatever that branch is, right? It's someone that I know from my previous job, like, I knew him from Staten Island when I was working, like, because he was a past president of the medical society that I belonged to. And, so I got to know him, but in a way, he's kind of, like, competitor, because, like, the island is very small, so he's one of the other bigger groups. So then, it's just kind of interesting that… He's the president, so… and he's also trying to hire people.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:13:58]
Oh, gotcha.
**Florence Shum** [00:13:59]
hi anybody yet. So everyone is trying to hire, and I don't know where all these people are. And then I spoke to the recruiter, at first she said, oh, you know, there are people who want to stay in New York, but at the same time, she's like, you know, a lot of… you know, the new graduates, whatnot, are already placed, and then I told her that I'm not necessarily looking for new graduates, too. we're just waiting. I… there was someone who was interested. You know, I got the CV and everything, but when they reach out, and I also personally reach out. Zero. Like, cricket.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:14:37]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:14:38]
So… And then I had, yeah, just… not much traction.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:14:45]
Yeah. Is the, is there a language requirement? Do they need to speak Chinese?
**Florence Shum** [00:14:51]
They don't need to. I mean, it's a plus, but they don't need to. Okay. My staff are all bilingual. Okay. And, like, I would say, like, 50% of my practice is maybe Chinese-speaking, the other… Or not, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:07]
Incredible.
**Florence Shum** [00:15:07]
My PA doesn't speak the language, and she's… her schedule is pretty full.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:14]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:15:16]
So… It's… I don't know, Roger's like, they'll come, they'll come! She's always very…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:25]
I'll be here.
**Florence Shum** [00:15:26]
Yeah. Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:29]
Are you… have you started seeing patients in the Staten Island?
**Florence Shum** [00:15:34]
Clinic? So, in 2 weeks.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:36]
Two weeks?
**Florence Shum** [00:15:37]
two weeks, the 28th, and so I only opened half a day, because I. how it's gonna be yet, right? So I'm gonna only open half a day.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:47]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:15:47]
Now, and it's fully booked.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:53]
Yay!
**Florence Shum** [00:15:53]
I was like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:15:54]
Because they're like, we don't have to go off the island, it's awesome!
**Florence Shum** [00:15:56]
Yeah, oh, they were, like, new patients, they're all new patients, so that's good.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:16:01]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:16:02]
And, yeah, so, so now I… So it's crunch time, we have to, like, get the office supplies and, like, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:16:14]
Right. So how are you going to manage your ordering of supplies across your different locations?
**Florence Shum** [00:16:24]
So, I usually order my, supplies, through Henry Schein, all the medical supplies. We already have the… Office address location added to my.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:16:41]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:16:42]
So they will… ship it there? I guess. But right now, because we're not open all the time, like. You know, so I'm thinking if I should just… like, ship everything back to Brooklyn, and then we then transport it, you know?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:16:58]
Yeah. So, so just a learning experience that we had in opening our second, that then we…
**Florence Shum** [00:17:04]
applied to.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:17:05]
our third location, was that we came up with this whole list of supplies that we needed, right? We needed in this location, and sort of unbeknownst to us, one of our nurses who does all our ordering basically just ordered enough to fully stock. that clinic, not really thinking about, like, basically to replicate what we were doing in a 10-provider clinic in what was really a 2-provider.
**Florence Shum** [00:17:34]
Oh my god.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:17:35]
to three-provider clinic, and so there was a lot of wastage. So, the things that aren't going to expire, things like, you know, your your gauze and your cotton swabs and those sorts of things, those aren't going to expire. You know, obviously, you're set up like your, you know, your tuning forks and your hammers and, you know, those things, but if you have things like… Lidocaine, or any injection.
**Florence Shum** [00:18:01]
That's all these meds.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:18:03]
any of your meds, or any supplies, like, for your EEG, like, even the things of, like, all of your little sticky things, or the needles that you're using for your EMG.
**Florence Shum** [00:18:15]
Thanks.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:18:15]
Any of those that have an expiration date, I would encourage you to just Take what you have from your current clinic, and…
**Florence Shum** [00:18:23]
Yeah, that's what I'm planning to do, especially for the EEG… especially for the EMG stuff, like, I'm just gonna bring a box, a box has 40 studies, that should be fun.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:18:33]
Perfect.
**Florence Shum** [00:18:35]
That's one.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:18:35]
Where you just have your tackle box of, you know that that's always stocked, and once a week, you bring it back to your main office, and you have somebody go through and make sure it's stocked. But just be really cognizant of that, of that.
**Florence Shum** [00:18:48]
Yeah, I think we…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:18:49]
or…
**Florence Shum** [00:18:50]
So right now… I, for the most part, I have been ordering the supplies myself.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:18:56]
Good.
**Florence Shum** [00:18:56]
Right? For my, my one location. Good. Back to the little things, like, but at the same time, like, I want to also not… I just ordered all these? Like, they were like, oh, I don't have any more batteries. Okay. Toilet paper, like, I even ordered all these things.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:19:14]
Yeah. That's what Costco's for, man.
**Florence Shum** [00:19:19]
And I order, I order do, do them, but, like, I don't have… Like, my office manager doesn't… She's not under my BJ's account.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:19:29]
Okay, so you're the person who's doing all of that.
**Florence Shum** [00:19:32]
Yes, yeah, so I'm like…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:19:34]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:19:34]
Yeah, so it's good, but then it's also bad, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:19:37]
Well, I just remember we spent all this time going through this list, and we said, yes, this is a great list, these are the things that we… that we needed, but then we didn't follow it through to that next step of, like.
**Florence Shum** [00:19:49]
Like, okay, what is the…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:19:50]
quantity.
**Florence Shum** [00:19:51]
Yeah, how many?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:19:53]
We have one partner that does circumcisions and uses, that uses Gomco clamps, which are… not GOMCO, that uses PlastiBells, which are this little plastic device. And they ordered, like, 3 boxes of the 3 different sizes, and he, like, does, like. maybe 3 circs a month? So all of that stuff expired. All of this lidocaine that we bought, all of these meds. all expired, and we didn't know because we didn't really have any, like, visibility, and now… so now we have a scanning system, so everything gets ordered to one central location, and… You know? And it's scammed, but…
**Florence Shum** [00:20:34]
And then you distribute to.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:20:36]
And then we distribute, yeah. Because we have a courier between, like, our own employee who's a courier between them.
**Florence Shum** [00:20:43]
Hmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:20:44]
Yeah, but but it was a costly… it was a costly, lesson, is what I'll say.
**Florence Shum** [00:20:51]
Yeah, like, I mean, I need to make a list. Like, I have a mental list, but I need to put it down. Like, even things like clipboards and staples.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:20:58]
Even, like, walking through your day. Like, today is a clinic day. What are the things that I'm using today, in this day, seeing these patients? Today is a procedure day. I'm gonna go and do these procedures. What are the things, you know, and just maybe even just, like, talking yourself through that, dropping that into your favorite version of AI and saying, okay, what do I need for a single provider for a half day? And let's create a supply that'll be good for maybe 30 days. And maybe that's what you stalk.
**Florence Shum** [00:21:32]
Yeah, we're gonna use, like, about… we're gonna stock just, like, 4 rooms, and then. Just so, like, you know, the testing, I can see patients, I think. Yeah. And just kind of, working the schedule where, like, I plan to be there one day, and then my PA will be there one day, we'll have testing on those days. And then we will add another day, probably, in a couple of months, depending on, like, the… need. We'll see how fast it builds. Hmm… So, and then, hopefully, I will be able to hire someone within… 6 months? You know, I'm hopeful. I'm not like, oh, tomorrow, you know, but… .
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:22:23]
What is the cost of a locums?
**Florence Shum** [00:22:26]
That's a good question. Well… You know, I had someone that helped me for, like, a little bit, like, almost like, She was… I bet she was not really charging, like, a locum price. I paid her $1,500 a day.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:22:49]
A day.
**Florence Shum** [00:22:50]
a day.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:22:53]
But that was flat, and then you didn't have any other expenses, no…
**Florence Shum** [00:22:58]
So, the malpractice, I use my own malpractice.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:23:01]
Right, because she was working on a day you were not working.
**Florence Shum** [00:23:04]
Exactly, exactly. But I still had to pay, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:23:07]
Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:23:08]
Mmm, I forgot how much, maybe, like, 100 or something? It's, like, something.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:23:13]
Did you have to pay additionally to put somebody else on your…
**Florence Shum** [00:23:16]
Yeah, like, a little bit more, I forgot how much more, but let's say around $100, something like that.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:23:20]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:23:21]
Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:23:22]
But if you're… we talked about your average, claim per visit was 190, and so as long as that person was seeing at least 15 patients, that average.
**Florence Shum** [00:23:34]
No, that's the thing, she was only seeing, like, 12-ish? Yeah, so I was, like, losing money. It was like… almost like a test for me. It was just, like, her schedule would be full, like, you know, I think it was, like, 18 people, right, like, on the schedule, but then, like. She would end up seeing, like, 12.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:23:56]
What would happen to the rest of them?
**Florence Shum** [00:23:58]
No shows… Yeah, these no-shows.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:24:05]
Hmm, yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:24:07]
Yeah. I mean, she was barely, like, covering, like, covering, like, her pay, but no overhead or anything. Like, you know, it's kind of like…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:24:15]
Yeah. Okay, but that's also, you know, that's also information for you, you know, as well, for that.
**Florence Shum** [00:24:25]
I think locums will be a lot more, because…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:24:28]
Yeah, I don't have any clue.
**Florence Shum** [00:24:29]
Yeah, because I would think that, like, you know, the company would need to make money. I should ask, though, just so I have an idea.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:24:42]
Well, I think it… then you… then you sort of know where, you know, what your options are.
**Florence Shum** [00:24:49]
yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:24:50]
And then, are you… what are you gonna do with the rest of… because your clinic space, you're going to set up 3 rooms, and you… do you have 6 rooms?
**Florence Shum** [00:25:01]
So, we have a total of 8 rooms.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:25:04]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:25:05]
and I'm planning to just use 4.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:25:11]
Oh, you're using 4.
**Florence Shum** [00:25:12]
Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:25:13]
Okay. What are your plans for the other four?
**Florence Shum** [00:25:16]
That's a good question, so… So I want to, that's why I was thinking to maybe, like, sublet, like, a route. Something like that. and then also, like, my current office, right? Like, when… my current office is 6 rooms. When I first started, it was like, whoa, so much space, like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna use it, right? But then, like… when you have two providers, like, we use two rooms for one provider. Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:25:57]
Absolutely.
**Florence Shum** [00:25:58]
So then, you know. we have easily, like, 2 testing things going on, so that's 2 rooms already. So, if I use 4 rooms, I can only… So, theoretically, it's really for one provider. So if I have two providers working at the same time, we would need, like, six routes. at least, like, 5 rooms, I would say.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:26:21]
Right, but you can also, you have talked about how your FTE is 4 days a week? And you can certainly sort of overlap that, so you could still sublet a room.
**Florence Shum** [00:26:36]
Yes, yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:26:36]
You know, for one day a… or one room, or two rooms for one day a week, or, you know, you can start to sort of play around with what that looks like.
**Florence Shum** [00:26:46]
Yeah, and how much, so I should… I think I asked Elaine that, like, before, like, you know, she…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:26:52]
Oh yeah, I meant to listen to that. I didn't… I didn't stand for that call. I needed to go back and listen. I wanted to hear.
**Florence Shum** [00:26:58]
Oh, it's a handful.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:26:59]
That's one.
**Florence Shum** [00:27:00]
And she told me to ask you, and I forgot.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:27:02]
No, I saw it in the list, and I just haven't… I… honestly, if I don't listen at the time, it's really hard to go back.
**Florence Shum** [00:27:09]
Oh, I know.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:27:11]
So, a very easy way that you can set the rate, because you… because of Stark, if you have somebody who is, A medical tenant, so if there are any sort of medical practice, you need to make sure that whatever you're charging yourself in rent, you are also charging them in rent.
**Florence Shum** [00:27:33]
Oh, oh, oh.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:27:34]
But, but figure in, so, so you're the… I mean, it's sort of, you know, you're your own entity, so it's already getting passed through, but… put all of the expenses, so all of your taxes, your insurance, your, all of your maintenance and upkeep, everything needs to go in there. Create a number, and then, break out, you know, basically a per square foot number. And then that can be the number you use for your exam room. And then, you know, an equipart share of, like, your waiting room, your common space. So, separate out your exam rooms from your common space. And come up with a, you know, a per square foot number. And it's the same number that you'll use… well, it should be the same number you're using for overhead for your employees as well. you are going to benefit the most by having… I'm sure you have done this, by having your rent be fairly high, because your… the interest that you pay on that income is going to be at a lower interest rate than what you pay on your… on your take-home. I mean, you're not really a W-2, right? Are you a W-2, or are you a…
**Florence Shum** [00:28:48]
I'm S-Corp, so I have a W-2 as well.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:28:51]
Okay. But right, you pay a lower… distributions on your real estate. So on your rent, do you try to really push as much Expense into rent as you can?
**Florence Shum** [00:29:03]
I don't think we've been maximizing it.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:29:07]
So… That would be a really great question to talk to your accountant. You want to know, like, what is the… and you'll need to do sort of, like, a look at the market for a couple space, but there should be a range. And it should be a per square foot range, and then you want… you should want to push your expense for your rent sort of as high as the market will bear. And again, if you're going to sublet, you need to keep that in mind as well, because they're going to also have to pay that. But then, it makes that expense higher. But in theory, if it then is, generating income because it's paying your expenses and paying you back. Right? If you're… if you did your… your lease as a triple net, so all of the expenses are being paid by your medical practice…
**Florence Shum** [00:30:01]
Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:30:02]
You should clear money, and you should… you should get…
**Florence Shum** [00:30:05]
Mmm…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:30:06]
That back, right? But it comes back… As, as a passive.
**Florence Shum** [00:30:15]
So, I think right now, for my one location, I paid the rent. Right? Like, market value, rent, not the highest. I think we stay… Okay. The middle, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:30:28]
Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:30:29]
And then… I don't think I accounted for any… like… insurance. I just pay, like, my practice pays the business insurance, like, all those things separate.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:30:45]
But who pays your property taxes?
**Florence Shum** [00:30:48]
Property tax. The building? Right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:30:53]
That should be an expense that gets passed on to you as the tenant.
**Florence Shum** [00:30:57]
Mmm, okay, okay, I don't think we charge… Like that.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:02]
Yeah, so… so, but… but if you're going to think about subletting, and you need to… so right now, you're saying, well, I don't really need my… my, rent expense to be that high, because I want to keep my expenses, because you may or may not recognize that you're wearing two different hats, right? You're like, oh, as the tenant, I don't really want to pay all of those expenses, because I know as a landowner. Because you own… do you own a… is it a condo, then, that you…
**Florence Shum** [00:31:29]
Right now is a mixed-use building.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:32]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:31:33]
So.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:34]
And you have, like, a portion of that building.
**Florence Shum** [00:31:37]
Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:37]
Is it condemned Minimized, where you guys then, like, have shared…
**Florence Shum** [00:31:41]
So, I share this building with my sister. So, basically, it's, like, 4 owners.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:46]
Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:31:47]
25% owner of this building.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:49]
Okay.
**Florence Shum** [00:31:50]
Oh, I mean, I guess with… because we filed jointly, me and Roger, so, like, it's like, we own 50%.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:31:55]
Okay, so that may be why you haven't done that one. Now, in the new building that you have, are you… is that shared ownership as well?
**Florence Shum** [00:32:04]
No, just, that's our own.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:32:06]
Okay, so then this one, it may not make sense for you to do that, because then if you pay more rent, you only really would get 50% back of any proceeds. So that one, I can understand. In your new building, though, you may think of that differently. You may think of, since you're the sole owner of it, and I would talk with your CPA about this. But especially since whatever you are going to charge your tenant has to be what you charge you yourself, and vice versa, right? You want that number to be… to be as inclusive of your expenses. Right?
**Florence Shum** [00:32:45]
Like, yeah, overcharged rather than under.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:32:48]
We don't say overcharge, but we say include all of the expenses.
**Florence Shum** [00:32:54]
Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:32:54]
And that's what we would call a triple net.
**Florence Shum** [00:32:57]
Yeah, because right now, I… pay my own cleaning and stuff, and that's not part of… yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:33:04]
So when you have a sublease, somebody who's renting from you, you want them to actually carry some of that expense for cleaning.
**Florence Shum** [00:33:12]
Yes. I mean, it makes sense, because, Like, yeah, it makes sense now. It's much cleaner when it's just medical building. And.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:33:25]
It's good and bad, right? It's good and bad, but it's just important to recognize, you know, what things look like from both hats.
**Florence Shum** [00:33:36]
Right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:33:37]
And so… and especially as… You start looking at those big tax numbers, and those big… you want to have as many expenses as you can have. Passed on… To your, you know, to your, your, your practice, if that is the highest tax-paying entity.
**Florence Shum** [00:34:02]
Right, yeah, I know what you mean.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:34:05]
You see what I'm saying?
**Florence Shum** [00:34:06]
So…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:34:07]
So, just, I guess, I guess the whole point is recognizing that you're going to need to think about how you manage expenses in the Staten Island space differently than you do in a mixed-use space in which you are, a non-majority owner.
**Florence Shum** [00:34:25]
Right, right, right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:34:26]
And it's not good or bad, but it's just, like, being strategic. About which entity wants to take on that expense, and where you, stand to have the most benefit from taking that expense, and if there's extra revenue that's generated, like, where you're going to have the least tax liability.
**Florence Shum** [00:34:48]
Yeah, that makes sense to, you know, have that.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:34:53]
You're also a sole owner in that building, so you may be able to take advantage of it without having to do those gymnastics, but it's the… it's the… It's still the, how do you appropriately set That leaves…
**Florence Shum** [00:35:10]
Yep.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:35:10]
You're sharing that space.
**Florence Shum** [00:35:12]
Yeah, but I need to… you're right that I have to calculate the cleaning, the utilities, the property tax, like… these things, because I'm not gonna…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:35:24]
Your snow… do you have to do snow removal?
**Florence Shum** [00:35:27]
Probably.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:35:28]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:35:29]
Huh?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:35:29]
Yeah, so, like, starting.
**Florence Shum** [00:35:31]
Roger this past winter, when there was, like, two…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:35:34]
That's an expense, and Roger should be paid for his time.
**Florence Shum** [00:35:37]
Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:35:37]
Right? So, but no, but it's seriously, if you're going to… and right now, it feels like you're taking out of one pocket and putting it into another, but when you are also calculating that overhead, and that is a part of the expense. That your employed provider has to help cover. You know, those are, you know, those are numbers that you want to have flushed out.
**Florence Shum** [00:36:02]
Yeah, so I think I will… I will have… because I anticipate that's… Like, people… like, people have casually kind of asked, like, oh, maybe I can, like, just sublet a room from you, or something like that, right? So, I'm sure, like, I'm gonna invite people to my grand opening, and whatnot. When people come to the space, they'll be like, wow, like, I don't need to do anything, right? Everything is already done.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:36:30]
Yeah, yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:36:31]
cabinets there, there's a sink there, you know, like, they just have to bring the patient there. Make it much easier. I have, like. Handicap accessible, like…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:36:42]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:36:42]
Everything.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:36:44]
Because otherwise, those are going to be some expensive rooms. So even if you just said right now, hey, I have 8 rooms, I'm intentionally… I'm ultimately going to use 4, but it's going to take a while to ramp up into that, you know, you probably easily have 2 rooms. That you could really play with and generate some additional… You know, interest, you know, whether that is in… You know, folks that are doing… telehealth that want to have a shared space. Those that are doing, you know, telehealth need to have a one day a week where they can actually see patients in person. You know, there's just… there's so much desire for that now, I can imagine. That if you got the word out, there'd be interest.
**Florence Shum** [00:37:34]
Yeah, and I'm also gonna reach out to someone who does, like, the aesthetic side of things. So, yeah, to… Yeah? You know…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:37:47]
Gets, like, gets, like, your bougie… your bougie line of service?
**Florence Shum** [00:37:51]
Yeah, that I don't need to provide. I just need to, like, provide the room.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:37:58]
Right. You know? Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:37:59]
So, yeah, like, I thought about doing that, but I was like, no, that's not really…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:38:03]
No. Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:38:05]
Yeah, it's…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:38:06]
I have it downstairs, but I don't… yeah, it's…
**Florence Shum** [00:38:09]
I know people who partner with, like, you know, an MP or, like, somebody, you know, for…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:38:15]
Yeah, the one thing about that is you're taking on their liability, so it goes really well until it doesn't, and so, yeah, so you're better off having them just have… Their space to do their thing.
**Florence Shum** [00:38:30]
Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:38:30]
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's super exciting. Is, you're, you're starting on, on April 28th. When is your grand opening?
**Florence Shum** [00:38:40]
May 17th.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:38:41]
Okay. Yay! That's so… Beauty.
**Florence Shum** [00:38:55]
Did, like, a small event. last week, yeah, last Thursday, I did a small event with, like, like, local, independent, providers. So, it was good, it was good, like, just networking, like…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:39:10]
Huh?
**Florence Shum** [00:39:10]
It was, like, two internists, a pediatrician, physiotherapist, like, ophthalmologist, And, so, I mean, it's good, like, we exchanged contacts and information, and, you know, they… They want, like, they say that they would like to come if I'm gonna do more.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:39:31]
As well. Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:39:33]
To, like, solidify the referrals and, like, you know, just want to help each other, you know?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:39:39]
Yeah!
**Florence Shum** [00:39:40]
I mean, like, independent, and they all, like, solo, too.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:39:44]
Yeah, and they recognize that it, it's, it's lonely, right? And so having that type of network.
**Florence Shum** [00:39:52]
Yeah, and then the fiscal therapy… the physical therapist that was there, I just met her, she literally came to my office, I already refer patients to them. I did not realize… I knew that they had a couple of locations, but I did not realize that they had 40 locations.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:40:09]
Wow.
**Florence Shum** [00:40:10]
in New York City, and they only opened 2021? how the hell did it… I think they maybe started with, like… I think they acquired, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:40:22]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:40:23]
Therapy group? Like, that was definitely less than 10 locations. And then they just expanded across, like, different boroughs. I was like, whoa, like, so I kind of want to learn from her, too, like, how you scale. Now, I don't want… Scale. Well, actually, You know, everyone says, never say never.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:40:44]
Right? Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:40:46]
But then I was like, well, how do you scale, like, so quickly? And, you know, like, it's a lot to manage. So they do all the in-house billing, they do credentialing.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:40:59]
I love that.
**Florence Shum** [00:40:59]
I was like, how do you even, like, hire? You know? And then she's like, oh, you know, we get, like, students who rotate through.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:41:08]
Right, yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:41:09]
So then I was like, you know what? I need to get… In touch with my… program again? My residency program.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:41:17]
Right, right. I mean, you, you originally, when we were talking earlier, like, I don't think I want a new grad, but… Perhaps you do. Perhaps you want somebody who is coming out and who is, like, looking for, you know, a different… a different lifestyle. who is willing to balance. Now, it's the whole balance of, can you do… Can you do that while you're still carrying big, you know, student loans?
**Florence Shum** [00:41:46]
Mmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:41:48]
But I guess our recruitment packages for… for neurologists in the city, are they doing big sign-on bonuses, or…
**Florence Shum** [00:41:58]
So, I don't know about the private practice that, like, think. I am… At least offering, like, market rate.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:42:08]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:42:09]
Right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:42:10]
I did go back to my notes, and you did say $300,000. I don't know where I got 5.
**Florence Shum** [00:42:14]
500!
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:42:17]
Like, dang, I should be a radiologist or a neurologist.
**Florence Shum** [00:42:21]
Like, do I even make 500 now? I don't even know.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:42:25]
That's awesome.
**Florence Shum** [00:42:27]
3… yeah, like, two… at first, I was thinking…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:42:30]
Maybe it was 350. Maybe it was 300 to 350, what was at the hospital.
**Florence Shum** [00:42:36]
So, I found out from my friend, she's movement disorder, so she works at Cornell. academic, and, like, I was just telling her, I was like, hey, I'm hiring, if you know anybody looking, like, let me know. Yeah! Just, like, because we were talking about something else, completely different. And then… and then… I forgot what I was… Asking her, but then she told me that, oh, For academic, they were, like, they were starting at $240.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:43:06]
Oh, and an academic, historically is a lower pay.
**Florence Shum** [00:43:10]
Right. So 240, and then when I told her, like, starting, like, 280 or 300-something, she was like, it took me years to get there! Yeah. So…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:43:21]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:43:22]
I mean, the lifestyle is completely different.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:43:26]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:43:26]
completely different. I mean, I don't know who works harder, I'm not sure, but, like, At least I… can… I think? If they work for my practice, they will have Less hours? Less working hours, at least? at least I can promise them that, like, 4 days, because I think most academic institutions will still need them to work 5 days.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:43:51]
Right, right, which is really… not sustainable.
**Florence Shum** [00:43:56]
Like, even…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:43:57]
In my opinion. I've never worked 5 days. As, you know, since residency. I haven't, and I just can't imagine. But there are different trade-offs, right? I mean, residency… You're a little younger than I am, but you probably still had post-call days where you didn't have to work. You had your 30-hour work week, or your 30-hour day.
**Florence Shum** [00:44:16]
And then post-call off, yes, just that… Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:44:19]
Where you could do your 24 hours, and then 6, and then… then you were off. Like, 6 for continuity.
**Florence Shum** [00:44:26]
Yeah, and then, like, we had night flows, like, kind of crazy schedules, sometimes night flow, sometimes Friday, sometimes Saturday, and like, you know, and… Basically, we average, like, 80 hours, like…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:44:39]
Yeah, yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:44:39]
Same as, like, most residency programs. They… they use you to… So… Yeah. But, When you… when you started, though, like, did they offer, like, even though you're working 4 days, but they not doing, like, they don't expect you to do, like, 10 hours per day? Kind of thing, right? Is it still… Don't I?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:45:05]
I mean, ours was… it was 4 days a week. And some of it was urgent care, so urgent… like, most of the days were like a… it was like a 7 or 8… clinic, like, patient care hours, I don't work that many. I, I probably, right now, my 4 days a week… 12… I think I see patients 7 hours a day, 3 days a week, so I'm at 21, and then I think I'm 6 hours. I think I only have, like, 27 patient-facing hours. So, if I was a employee provider, I wouldn't make, benefits. Our 32 patients… so, really, it should be 4 8-hour days, and I just do less of that.
**Florence Shum** [00:46:03]
So, 32, it's like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:46:05]
is concerned.
**Florence Shum** [00:46:06]
Apply for… for benefits.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:46:08]
qualify for benefits, yeah. So, like, of anybody who's an employee, they have to have that many patients-facing hours of care. And I guess that's technically what we could do, because it would be, like, 8.30 to noon, and then 1.30 to 5. is… is about… it's 8 hours, and that would be 4 days a week, would be that schedule, but I work… 8 to noon, and 1.30 to 4.30. But I'm still, like, seeing… you know, I don't know. I don't think, you know, most days… yeah, it… not that it really matters. I probably am actually scheduled hours versus still taking care of patients.
**Florence Shum** [00:46:53]
Yes, yeah, so, like, basically I'm offering, like, scheduled hours of, like, 32, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:46:58]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:46:59]
hours, right? 8 hours, and… actually, it's, like, really 7 hours, right? Because you have an hour, like, lunch, and whatnot. Yeah. But then… and I know most… myself and my PAs, like, that one hour is more like catch-up time.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:47:14]
100%. Like, if you've got 15 minutes in that to eat, I keep trying to tell myself I'm gonna walk for 15 minutes at lunchtime, and I've still not figured out how to make that work.
**Florence Shum** [00:47:24]
And then… and then also, like, probably, like, an hour or so, like, to finish up charts. Like, my PA's been pretty good with… Finishing up all her notes, like, by the time she leaves, which is, like, she basically is there, like, most days, like, 9 to 6. sometimes earlier, if the patient's, like, you know, not showing up at the end, or she's just finishing, so she's very efficient that way. And, Interestingly, like, because her previous job, she was working 4 days, but then they were, like, 10-hour days.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:47:59]
Well… But you don't pay… you don't pay your PA for charting time, do you?
**Florence Shum** [00:48:06]
I mean, I'm pay… I pay her salary, though.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:48:09]
Right, exactly. So their salary, you're just like, you're gonna be here these days, and you're just gonna get your work done.
**Florence Shum** [00:48:14]
Exactly. Yeah. So you get them done sooner than you leave earlier, kind of thing. Right, exactly.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:48:20]
Exactly. Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:48:21]
So… it's hard to… I don't think any… I don't think you can pay hourly for physicians, unless you're anesthesiology, I think.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:48:31]
Well, the only way you do that is if you do more of, like, a shift work. Like, so in our… in our urgent care, we do a shift pay.
**Florence Shum** [00:48:41]
Hmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:48:42]
And so we have a shift pay for physician, we have a shift pay for mid-level, for either a nurse practitioner or PA. So, in doing that, where you have, like, just sort of a finite time that you work, so if it's a 6-hour shift, it's X number of dollars, and if it's an 8-hour shift, it's X number of dollars.
**Florence Shum** [00:49:01]
So…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:49:03]
So, that is one way that you could… And then you still have to get to your 32 hours to get benefits. So you have to work so many shifts.
**Florence Shum** [00:49:18]
So I think right now, even though, like, some people might… you know, say, oh, that's, like, very little hours that they're working, that I'm paying them full-time, but Sometimes it's a trade-off, right? You want quality of care, you want balance?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:49:36]
And your mid-level is salaried, but you wouldn't… like, if you brought on a physician and you had them on some sort of production. Then you have to decide if you're gonna salary them, or if you're gonna start out with, like, an income guarantee that maybe has a floor, but then they have to produce to stay above that.
**Florence Shum** [00:49:57]
I am planning to offer, like, one year income guarantee. And then, you know, still… because… I don't know if the schedule will be… faux, right? Like, I mean, they… they would be busy enough, I think, especially if they go to two locations and whatnot, but I don't know if they'd be able to carry themselves for sure, like, for the first year? That's gonna be tough.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:50:25]
Well, not that first year, but certainly by the second year, and so then… so then how much of that, then, do you recoup before they get to go to full, you know, full production? Or… or get to start to get bonus payments? I want to take those… that… those numbers, now that we know that it's 300, I want to put that together, and I want to create a, a calculator that we can… I think I've played with a little bit of one that's more than just that spreadsheet, but so you can sort of plug and play your expenses.
**Florence Shum** [00:50:58]
Okay?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:50:58]
And… and understand.
**Florence Shum** [00:51:00]
Yeah, and then that would just be, like, strictly seeing patients, so if it's, like, headache person, a movement disorder person, like, things like that. Like, people who do procedure will be a little bit different, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:51:13]
Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:51:14]
EMG, like, there'll be, like, an afternoon that they won't be seeing patients, they will just be doing, like, you know, like, the studies of EEG.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:51:23]
Excuse me.
**Florence Shum** [00:51:24]
reading, or whatever. So, I think it's good to know just by straightly seeing patients, like. You know, if it's possible to… At least, like, they can cover themselves. Yeah. Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:51:41]
But I think we proved that. We proved that, again, by making some assumptions. So the next thing we need for you is we need to understand what your… what your expense is, what that overhead allocation would be. on a per-room basis. And so for your… for your, Brooklyn clinic that has 6 rooms, right?
**Florence Shum** [00:52:05]
Hmm?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:52:06]
For that clinic, you could just do it quick and dirty of saying, like, what are all of the expenses To run this clinic, and divide it by 6, and have it on a… and have it as a per-room basis, and then you know that you have Two rooms per provider. For somebody who's just seen clinic patients, they're not doing procedures, right? That would be a quick and dirty way to get at an overhead.
**Florence Shum** [00:52:37]
Yeah, so that will include, like, the staff, too? Like, or just the rent and…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:52:42]
Well, it should include, like, a pro-rata share of any shared staff, right? So, your scheduler, your front desk person, your office manager, your, EMR expense for your billing and coding, you know. Anything that's sort of a collective expense, if it's a license-based fee, then that… that becomes a…
**Florence Shum** [00:53:08]
I think in the original service line.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:53:11]
Huh.
**Florence Shum** [00:53:12]
Right? Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:53:13]
Yep.
**Florence Shum** [00:53:13]
Do that for the rooms, because, like… I was like, that's a… I'm like, oh, how much do I actually pay, you know, per… per provider. I think, like, one provider easily have, like, 3 working staff.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:53:28]
Well, and there are benchmarks for that. So, yeah, 3 FTEs is typically… 2 to 3 FTEs is a typical overhead needed for a… clinical practice that's not doing a lot of extraneous things. Now, yours is a little bit different because you may have the staff that sets up that EEG, right? And so, there may be service line…
**Florence Shum** [00:53:52]
Maybe high, yeah, and then also the… I mean, that's… even though I'm… I have, like, 3 people in the front, but basically a lot of times because I need them to pick up calls.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:54:02]
Right.
**Florence Shum** [00:54:02]
Because the front desk is, like, the call center.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:54:05]
Yeah. Of course they're gonna do double duty, right?
**Florence Shum** [00:54:08]
Yeah, so I'm… So I'm trying to kind of, that's why I was, like, considering the VAs to help with those calls by scheduling patients. Things like that.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:54:21]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:54:23]
That would, like… limit, like, the number of staff I need to hire to pick up calls so that they don't miss these calls.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:54:33]
Do you have to, how much is the language barrier an issue for scheduling appointments?
**Florence Shum** [00:54:38]
Yes, that is definitely challenging. I think AI Agent would be good, eventually. That would be, like, the way to go. You can speak any language, you know?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:54:52]
Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:54:53]
But for now, at least they can… capture even half. Like, I'm okay with, like, just… diverting some, you know, to the VAs, if I can. So it's a work in progress, I think. Yeah, but definitely, especially because I have two locations, I will have two locations, and we're gonna have only one number.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:55:18]
Yes, yes, of course you are, and you're gonna have one call center.
**Florence Shum** [00:55:24]
Damn.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:55:24]
And I guess the question is, as you start over in Staten Island. Are you taking a staff person with you?
**Florence Shum** [00:55:33]
Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:55:34]
Are you just taking one staff person?
**Florence Shum** [00:55:37]
I'm gonna take two. One's a scribe for me, and also, like, actually, like, both are my office managers, like, one, she's gonna do front desk and, like, everything else, and then he's gonna scribe for me, and we're gonna… basically, like, I feel like in the beginning, we need to kind of, like, see what we need.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:55:57]
100%.
**Florence Shum** [00:55:59]
So I will bring my left and right hand with me.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:56:02]
Yeah, absolutely.
**Florence Shum** [00:56:03]
And then, I think that's why, by the second or third week, I will be able to open a testing day to accommodate those patients. So then I will have another staff, like, being there all day. You know, to do testing.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:56:18]
And the other clinic will stay open, staffed by your PAs?
**Florence Shum** [00:56:22]
Yes, exactly.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:56:23]
Yeah, that's fantastic. No, I'm super… I am super excited for you, and I think it's really fun to hear all of these pieces really come together, you know, having gotten to watch the, you know, the… the purchase and the build-out and… and those pieces.
**Florence Shum** [00:56:42]
Yeah, so I'm excited, but also, obviously, like, nerve-wracking, but it's exciting. Like, the other day, I met… I met someone, like, 2 days ago, another dinner. And he's, like, thinking, he's internist, and he's doing primary care with a large group, like, very corporate, right? So then he's, like, thinking that he wants to start his own thing. I was like, oh my god, that's so exciting, you should definitely try to do that, right? And he's like, oh, you know, all the things that we all… Been there, like, done. all obvious questions, like, well, how do I start? Where do I start? Like, so many of those questions. I was like, oh, you're in the right place! I said, the toughest decision is you want to leave. Right. That is the toughest one, like, can I imagine myself staying here, or I want something more? You already decided you want something more. You know, like, that's the most difficult question. The other things will come, so I, you know… so it was kind of, like, nice, and then I told him, like, where I am, how I started, and he was like, wow, you did, like, so much, and then you have 3 kids, like… like, he was impressed, right? I mean, he's…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:57:56]
Yeah!
**Florence Shum** [00:57:56]
he's 40, and has one child, right? So he's like, wow, you know, I'm like, you know, like… and then I'm like, oh yeah, that's true, I did do a lot in, like, a few.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:58:06]
Yeah! And that's the important thing, is you have to stop and look back and say, look at what we've done, right? Yeah.
**Florence Shum** [00:58:15]
Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:58:16]
Well, Florence, how can I continue to support you in this… this journey that you're on? And I'm hoping that you're getting value as we're sort of going through.
**Florence Shum** [00:58:27]
Yeah, like, I was talking to Vanika also, like, we were, like, on the side, because I was asking her other questions, and then, like, and then, you know, we were so… we're both so appreciative that you, like, go into the… the detail of the practice that, like. seriously, like, how do you even know, like, what to do? Like, I have an idea, okay, this is how much I pay for this, but then how do I really calculate, break down into the details? Like, when do you hire? How much can you afford, like, to pay this person? Is this person, like, breaking even? Like… These things, that seems intuitive, but is not. Right? Like, you know, so it's really helpful. Good. To really understand, like, your own numbers and your service line, like, you know, it's super helpful. So, I want to complete my… spreadsheets with all the expense, so then, you know, and then… so then I really have clarity. And then also, like, once I hire, I also have to think about, okay, if this person is not working out, like, what to do? How much time do I give, like, you know, if it's a front desk person, I know, like, 3 months, we know if it's gonna be working or not, then we can get rid of that person, but provider is different, because it's so expensive to start someone.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [00:59:54]
Yeah. Yeah, and that's why, you know, making sure that as best as you can know that you've got somebody that is… that is committed.
**Florence Shum** [01:00:03]
Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:00:03]
And I think your idea of having that guarantee for the year, of you also saying to them, I'm committed to you.
**Florence Shum** [01:00:12]
Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:00:13]
It's that, it's that dual-sided commitment. But yeah, my goal is that as we go through these things, like, you, you develop that that understanding of the numbers, so that it's not, you know… I think these type of groups are super important just because there's so much knowledge sharing, and you've seen that even as you've done your… your micro meetups, right? There's… there's so much value there. But… but my goal for anyone who is doing this with us is that you develop those… that… that financial skill sets, so you're like, okay, we want to do this, we want to bring… what are the levers that I need to be able to do? And you could make those decisions, right? And we may still, like, bounce things off of people, but… You know, what we're talking about isn't rocket science, but it's developing a different skill set that's outside of what we're doing in the exam room.
**Florence Shum** [01:01:10]
Yes, I mean, this is really being your own CEO of your practice.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:01:14]
He's like, yeah.
**Florence Shum** [01:01:15]
important to know that. Like, even as a partner, like, I never knew any of that stuff. I see the numbers, I don't know what they mean. Right. I see the high overhead, I see all of the numbers, and then I'm wondering, how can the overhead be, like, 77%?
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:01:33]
Yeah. Yeah, and until you really drink down… and I will tell you that, like, even amongst all of my partners, there are definitely those who would say exactly what you just said. There are numbers, as long as I know I'm taking stuff home, I don't really spend a whole… like, you can geek out on them, that is fine. And so, but… I want to take us from, and I say the same thing for my practice, I want to take us from thriving in spite of ourselves. to just thriving, right? And… So…
**Florence Shum** [01:02:05]
And how to be creative? What can you add? Like you said, just, like, subletting, like, a room or two, like, you know, will be maybe a huge difference.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:02:15]
Well, I… like I said, I just… I am so happy to get to be on this journey with you, and, you know, watch what you have created. Because, again, I will… I will echo the… the words of that 40-year-old, you know, internist who's like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe what you've created. So, you've got that. You've got just that drive, it's so fun to watch, and so to get to, like, support that as it grows is really, really satisfying on my end, too.
**Florence Shum** [01:02:45]
I need… I need all the help, you know? That's, like, I… learn from, like, really just from talking to other… other practice people, other, you know, entrepreneurs, other…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:02:56]
Hmm.
**Florence Shum** [01:02:57]
Who are more successful to, like, you know. get ideas, like, oh, okay, this is how you can do it. And then I also want to double check, right, that I'm not crossing any lines, this is like, you know, like the stock law stuff, like, I want to make sure that I'm… like you said, oh yeah, I can't undercharge, then it would be, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:03:18]
I can't give him a deal.
**Florence Shum** [01:03:20]
Mmm…
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:03:21]
Right?
**Florence Shum** [01:03:22]
Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:03:23]
you can decide to let them do, like, a half a day. Like, maybe we do a half a day, and that, you know… so, so it is important to, you know, to be aware of those things, so…
**Florence Shum** [01:03:33]
Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, Jenny.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:03:35]
Yes, you're welcome. No, it was great. I was actually excited, because I haven't gotten to, like, just sort of do a one-on-one, and I've realized, I just did one with, with Natasha last week, and I need to swing around, like, this is a great parts… point, like, sort of halfway through of, like. where are we at? And, one of the next things I actually want to do off of this is I'm going to put together sort of a, like. A summary of where and you're gonna give me some feedback on this, but where I think you're at, what your, like, current action items are,
**Florence Shum** [01:04:13]
I love those. I love those emails, like, okay, this week you should concentrate on this, like, work on that. I was like, yeah, I need that. I need someone to make me accountable, like… Yes!
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:04:22]
Yes, and so, so that was also part of why I wanted to do a one-on-one. So, stay tuned. I think I've, I've been bonding with Claude, and I've put together a thing, and I want to do, like, a test, because I did it on another, another practice, and I was like. dang, that's amazing! You know, just as I continue to build my knowledge base as well, so… Alright, my dear, I will see you on Monday. You have a wonderful weekend.
**Florence Shum** [01:04:48]
Do have a good weekend! Okay, thank you, bye.
**Jennie Eckstrom** [01:04:50]
Alright, bye!