# **CBF Session – March 30**
**Charu Sawhney: **I was like, oh, this makes more sense. I was like, you know, sometimes you do things so, like, you know, like…
**Charu Sawhney: **What is it, just…
**Charu Sawhney: **Automatically, you're not even paying attention, and I was like, I could have sworn I did this, but now I can't get in, that's all I know.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't know, I just sort of feel like there's so many of those things that we do that I…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't know.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's sort of like, you know, when you're driving to the grocery store, and…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you end up at the clinic, and you're like, but I was going to the grocery stores. Like, I know that that was what I was doing, and here I am, or, like, the hospital, or whatever. You're like, this was not what my plan was.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… I don't know. I don't know, that might just be more and more as…
**Charu Sawhney: **And I can't remember the last time I talked to you.
**Charu Sawhney: **I think it… all of that stuff was happening, but I didn't tell you, but,
**Charu Sawhney: **We had a… there was a leak in the clinic next door, and it flooded into our suite.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Shoot.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, but it's a… I mean, it was their fault, but all of last week was pretty intense, because.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I was…
**Charu Sawhney: **I was just dealing with that, you know? Like, you just… the amount of hours, even though, like, thankfully, I caught it on a Sunday, and I didn't, I didn't have to cancel my patients.
**Charu Sawhney: **It just… just the amount of time it takes to, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **Manage the water mitigation people, and manage ordering new floors, and… You know, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **all of that jazz. I was, like, in clinic until, like, 2 or 3 AM, like, every night last week. It was just insane. And then today, my internet wasn't working because some garbage truck dude, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **Knocked out a power line.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oops.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm just like, I guess this is just one of the… like, you just go with the flow, like, there's always something.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh my gosh.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **We had, it's only been 2 winters ago… well…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Two years ago now. It was historic cold, and one of the rented spaces wasn't occupied, and they weren't
**Jennie Eckstrom: **heating it appropriately, and there was a copper pipe in an exterior wall that burst, and it, set off our… actually, our burglar alarm at 3 in the morning, because water was pouring out the lobby door.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And so… We have a…
**Charu Sawhney: **this stuff.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **The main floor is 3,000 square feet.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No, the whole clinic is 30,000 square feet, so probably… anyway, all that to say, the water…
**Charu Sawhney: **30,000?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Everywhere, and then it was going down the elevator shaft.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And got into the server room.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Where we have all of our computers, and so fortunately.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **like, fortunately, it did not… by the grace of God, it did not destroy our computers, it didn't destroy our servers, because we host our own…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And… but yes, I…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, it's insane, and the sad part is, is I didn't even have to close down all of last week, but I had to go home today, because I couldn't get on. My clinic is in this, like, weird pocket, and
**Charu Sawhney: **I couldn't get onto my, like, white… like, my hotspot, and I was like, I can't… I was like, I have to go home, and I have to switch, I have to make everyone virtual. And I was like, this is just… this is just odd.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But you were able to pivot and make everybody virtual.
**Charu Sawhney: **Which is, like, so nice, right? Because, you know, if I was working at any other company that I've worked at, they would have, like, forced me to do it on paper, which is, like, more painful than anything you can ever experience. And I was like, no, it makes more sense for me to just go home and do it, because my EHR wasn't down, it was just our internet, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right.
**Charu Sawhney: **So…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That's one of the things that I have found with doing, a virtual AI scribe, is that it doesn't matter. Like, if I don't have access to my EMR, I just continue to talk, and I know I'm capturing it, so in the times that… because
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **we… we have similar things, where, like, the power goes out, the… yeah, like, we lost our internet when… or actually it was the power, when somebody ran into the telephone pole in the grocery store parking lot, you know, or somebody cut the fiber line, and so… Yeah. Yeah, that ability…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yay!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **10.
**Charu Sawhney: **You need electricity for… Well, but the problem is, is my power didn't go out, but…
**Charu Sawhney: **the power to whatever that spectrum tower or server, you know what I mean? Like, I'm like, but the internet went out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do you have redundancy in your internet?
**Charu Sawhney: **I do not, and you know what's interesting is that when I first started planning my clinic.
**Charu Sawhney: **I had a plan that I was gonna have two internet servers. Like, I was like, I'm gonna have Spectrum, and I'm gonna have something else.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Some cable or something, yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **some, yeah, some internet, like a Google Fire, like, you know, and for some, like, as I was planning everything, everybody was like, yep, that's a good idea, you should do that, or they told me to do that, and then as I was putting it together, my IT company
**Charu Sawhney: **And they were like, yeah, no, you don't really need to do that. And I was like, but why?
**Charu Sawhney: **And I was like, I don't understand. I thought.
**Charu Sawhney: **Even if, like, one is slow, you could bump into another one.
**Charu Sawhney: **And so I just found that to be interesting, and I can't remember, I think it was my IT company who told me not to do it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Interesting.
**Charu Sawhney: **And of course, I no longer have that IT company, so now I'm like…
**Charu Sawhney: **now I'm gonna do it, but Google… Google Wireless is coming into our neighborhood slowly, so I don't think it's quite yet in the neighborhood of my clinic, and maybe I decided to wait for that, but that's probably what I'm gonna do, is…
**Charu Sawhney: **Because I think outside of Spectrum, I can't remember if it's Comcast, I don't know what the other major one is, but yes, I will be doing that now.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do you guys have… you're in Texas. You have CenturyLink? Do you have… are there any other major fiber.
**Charu Sawhney: **Google Fiber. In Texas, it's just Google Fiber.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I actually, on my… you know those billboards that always change around your work? One of them is now for Google Fiber, so I was like, okay, they're here. I was like, I think I just…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah. Have somebody else pay for the infrastructure, and you can just have a…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **A hub off of it, right?
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, because I… what I don't know is, like, I have one of those, like, like in, like, a proper wireless connection thing where I have, like, lines going to each of the rooms.
**Charu Sawhney: **I don't… I don't know if I have, like, I don't know if they come in, are they gonna have to put in another router or another connection? I don't know, like, how that works, but I'm sure it's not too complicated.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, that, and then you also want to have the ability to then have a, like, a flip over that happens. So, like, if the… if the connection speed… and… and maybe for one person, you don't necessarily have to do this, but…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But, you know, if there's times where the connection speed is low, that it… if there's latency, then it automatically flips you over.
**Charu Sawhney: **Is that how your clinic… is that how your servers are connected? Oh, but you have an internal server, so that's different.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right, but we have… because we have 3 locations, and they're all pointing back to one for the server, we have to have… but this is…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **this is the thing that I'm working on, with our… so, in my downtime, I'm also an IT geek.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But… but really, having… it's a part of our disaster recovery plan of having what happens when internet goes down in one location, and can all the locations still point back to the server? What happens if our physical server goes down? So, again, we've had enough
**Jennie Eckstrom: **enough near misses that there have been a lot of opportunities. So we fortunately have 2 or 3 fiber companies in the Valley,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But, but it's all about.
**Charu Sawhney: **Impressive.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **has…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **who has their networks, and then they all just, you know, they all just sort of piggyback on each other, you know, so… Yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **No, I'm curious now, because, I mean, I've only heard of Google Fiber, but that doesn't mean that there isn't other fiber companies, and I'm just not, you know, aware of it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so I'm sort of surprised that…
**Charu Sawhney: **I know.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **on yet. Oh, running late, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Florence is on her way, and…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, while we're waiting for those folks, I do, like I say, I do want to offer you a couple, you know, one-on-ones so we can catch up. The things that we have worked on in the first two months really are, around
**Jennie Eckstrom: **taking our profit and loss statement and really doing a, a more of a narrow focus so that we can understand a service line. And right now, you can use yourself as a service line.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that rather than it just being the full
**Jennie Eckstrom: **revenue and, you know, and expense and bottom line for our clinic that we can actually make, you know, really intentional decisions. And so, starting by breaking that down into, into pieces that then we can utilize. And so, starting with that single, member service line.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then, drilling that into then understanding the overhead that goes with that service line. So, and we've chatted with… you'll… you'll get to meet Florence and… Florence and the Nika, and, not sure if,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **if Natasha will be here tonight, but but so that you can then, at a point where if you decide, gosh, in my six rooms, I want to bring somebody on, or I, you know, I want to understand what that looks like, you have those metrics so that you can make those intentional
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Decisions, and then,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you know, for you, the other service line, if you decide that you're going to do, like, advanced primary care management or chronic care management, like, understanding with your staff person who needs to manage that, like, what does that look like? What does it look like to allocate part of that FTE time, you know, for that? There's others…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You do, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I'm signing up for, like, I'm signing up for a virtual assistant so I can get there, because I'm realizing right now
**Charu Sawhney: **even if I brought this up, my staff doesn't have the time to do it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **Let me get that set up, and then…
**Charu Sawhney: **And then I'll sit down and talk to her about it, because…
**Charu Sawhney: **I guess you have to go back to the basics, you have to be like, okay, which plans even do this, right? It's not all Medicare, it's only…
**Charu Sawhney: **Isn't it just mainly Medicare Advantage, or it's all…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No, it's all Medicare's.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, nice! Okay, well that'll make it easier.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so APCM… Chronic Care Management was the one that initially was not playing with everyone, where they started only with Original Medicare.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And now they have branched into, some of the Blue Cross Advantage plans. But APCM, Advanced Primary Care Management, all of the…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **the Medicare plans will allow you to bill, they just participate… some of them cost share differently with their participants. So, what I found is that folks that have
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Original Medicare with a supplement.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **If they have a deductible, if they have, like, their $285 deductible, they have to meet that, right? You just know that. So, if APCM is the first bill that goes in those first 3 months of the year, and you haven't seen them yet, then they may see that piece go toward their deductible.
**Charu Sawhney: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But then Humana Advantage is covering it 100%. United Advantage is covering it at 100%. Blue Cross is a little funky. Blue Cross Advantage this year, there's a bunch of different plans, and I'm seeing some that are passing that 100% on to patients, which stinks.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Some are still… some are covering it, some are cost-sharing it. So, that's a little bit… and I don't know if those are regional pockets of different flavors. Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **of Blue Cross Advantage. Aetna's been good. Then there's a couple of the supplements that are cost-sharing. So, if they have Original Medicare, and then, say, they have TRICARE for Life, or they have,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's another one. Blue Cross Federal as their supplement.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **They're cost-sharing that $10, but what we're finding is, about 85% of our patients are hitting that too chronic problem, which ends up being about $52 a month.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That's just on.
**Charu Sawhney: **I mean, for us, that's everyone. Like, I don't know any… I don't know I have any Medicare patient. So you said the chronic care management, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **Initially, they were saying it's only for traditional, but now it's becoming more flexible.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But it's stole by.
**Charu Sawhney: **Case-by-case basis.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, so we're seeing, like, you know, it… so what we'll have to see is whether…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that one, you almost just have to trial the billing and see what they want to do. With the chronic care management, though, you have to document your hours. You have to document your time, and you bill in 20-minute increments. So, Athena may have a,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Athena may have, actually, a module for chronic care management.
**Charu Sawhney: **Okay, okay, then I think they do that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Thank you. And then you might also want to… and so we've also used, you know, in ECW, they have a module for chronic care management, so we've used that, because you have to create a care plan for patients. So that's, you know, there's part of those things. Hello, Vinika!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Vineka: **Hello, I was on mute, sorry, and I totally forgot, I'm so sorry I'm late.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That's alright. So, Vinique, I want you to meet Shahru. She is joining our group.
**Vineka: **Hi, shower group!
**Charu Sawhney: **Hi, nice to meet you.
**Vineka: **Meet you too.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Vanika is a psychiatrist in Utah.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Who has… she's a solo practice and has two locations.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **She's like.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, wow.
**Charu Sawhney: **Awesome.
**Vineka: **Not recommended.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Lots of opportunities to learn lessons, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And Charles, you're in Houston.
**Charu Sawhney: **Austin. Austin. Austin, yeah. I'm from Houston.
**Charu Sawhney: **I know, but I'm from Houston, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, okay.
**Vineka: **And what's your specialty?
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm internal medicine, so primary care.
**Vineka: **Okay.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I just opened my own private practice, like, 8 weeks ago. I'm very new.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Vineka: **Wow.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **With 15 years of primary care, so…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yes, practicing banker for a long time, but, you know, when you were like, well, this is what we've done so far, and I was like, I need to make my first profit and loss statement. I haven't done that yet.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, and sometimes those are just things that… isn't that what the accountant gives us at the end of the year, that we say, sure, there's dollars in the bank, right?
**Charu Sawhney: **Well, no, I mean, it's one of those things I'm… I'm wanting to compare, like, where I am on my pro forma, like, what I said I was gonna do versus what I've actually done, so I need to, like, I need to reconcile all of that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, I'm gonna, think… let's see, did you guys get the, did you guys get the revenue cycle management handout that I had Jersey send out?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **If not, I'm going to copy it and drop it in the chat, because we're gonna… Work through that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Just to walk through it, and then, gosh.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Sorry, just one second.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Too many screens, too many screens.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Let's see, can I… Copy this…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Just a second.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't know why this… did you guys get that in your email? Did, I'd add…
**Vineka: **Yes, it came through. Okay. I just… I'm just printing it now.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, I tried not to have it be too crazy colorful, it's up my files.
**Charu Sawhney: **Sorry, I got it yesterday.
**Vineka: **I love the side.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, good, okay, okay, good.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, what I did with this, and this is after some discussions that we have had in… in this group just about…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **The various places of, you know, of what… all the people who are involved in the whole revenue cycle piece, from the schedulers to anyone who's maybe using a clearinghouse to determine eligibility before a patient comes in for an appointment.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **for the person who's checking, you know, when they come in, is your… is your insurance correct? Has it been updated? Are all of our demographics? Then we do the,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **We do the… Visit… let me just pull this up.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Most of the time, we're not doing that, sort of, that pre…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Let's see, can you guys see this?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Just have to figure out if I do this correctly.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Are you able to see this revenue cycle management?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yes, no, maybe so.
**Charu Sawhney: **I also just pulled it up on my… like, I just kind of… I split-screened it, so it's fine.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, good job.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Strong work.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, so, and then recognizing, like, where the common error points are.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **in that, and so that's what I try to do in this, is to… to…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So I marked these with sort of the little red,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **sort of danger. So, like, the prior authorization, the patient registration, obviously our documentation, and making sure that we are capturing everything that we are doing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you know, labs, injections, any other treatment. Obviously, G2211 comes in there with its modifiers, and then… then our coding. So, a lot of us, I think, are doing our own coding, but then who, on the back end is also then…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **doing that claim scrubbing, right? Making sure that the bundling of codes are happening correctly according to… to CMS, making sure that they're agreeing with, like, both of the local and sort of the national, designations, that, you know, any of those
**Jennie Eckstrom: **specific things, so making sure that that's happening, because that could be a place where things can fall through. And then the claim submission, and so understanding that claims are getting sent out, what, you know, what the timeframe of that, that they're getting sent out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then if they're, if they're being denied understanding why they're being denied, and trying to figure out, sort of, the root cause of those so we can troubleshoot that, and then really following those KPIs so that it can be a constant improvement
**Jennie Eckstrom: **process, and that really comes into staff training and having that oversight, because obviously we're not doing all these pieces, but at the end of the day, if we want to make sure that our revenue is coming in, that revenue that's increasing our profitability, these are the things that we have to be paying attention to. So…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So then this, this next piece is really then using these various,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **potential errors and the denial drivers and that, really sort of doing that to do an audit on your claims process, and involving those team members, again, whether it's, you know, the
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Eligibility, whether that's the people at the front desk or the people who are scheduling, if there's prior authorization that needs to happen,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Those demographic pieces, making sure that our documentation is supporting the care that we're providing, and
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Now, fortunately, with, like, AI stuff, that part has become a lot easier, but, making sure that in that we're not adding fluff, we're not doing copy and paste pieces.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that would increase the audit risk. The other thing that's come into this clinical documentation now, you know, with, like, what Cigna was threatening to do this fall, was using AI to automatically down-code based upon medical decision making, so making sure that we are justifying the care that we're providing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Rather than just assuming that somebody else is going to read the note and fill in the blanks for us, because AI is really starting to be leveraged to look at those things, so we need to be proactive, in doing that the same.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Obviously making sure that we're not missing any charges, and then in that charge capture, it's also the timely filing, if things, you know, have not gone out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **coding… Claim scrubbing… And then once we have those
**Jennie Eckstrom: **EOB postings, making sure that then we are reconciling with the claims.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And again, that same thing where we can have the potential for things to be down-coded as a part of that audit, making sure that the claim that comes back is what we expect it to be, that that hasn't…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That isn't coming back as a 213 instead of a 214, and we're chasing down those pieces.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Again, the denial process, understanding where those are happening and what upstream piece we need to be fixing to be ahead of that. So we're not dealing with the denials, we're actually finding those patterns and paths so that we can prevent them from happening in the first place.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then we get to our AR bucket, right? Our accounts receivable, really trying to keep the majority of that AR bucket in that less than 40 days. And so that's, you know, from the time that we see them. And this, to me, sounds crazy, because
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't know about you guys, but 40 days is very, very short. I don't know that that's a KPI that I missed. I'm…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I meet, but that being… I mean, I'm just even looking at our claim cycle in our clinic, and we're 30 days before they even go out. So, so that's…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **probably not terribly realistic for us, but again, if you set your metrics and you set up from the beginning that this is our goal, and when we're not, you know, figuring out why we're not there, is it because we don't have enough billers? Is it because the notes aren't getting done? Is it because…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **They're going back to having things clarified before they can go out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, really shooting for as short of an AR cycle as we can. And then, when they're not… when they're… when we've gotten that EOB back, we've gotten the payment from the insurance.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And it flips to patient responsibility. How are we collecting those dollars? Is it having a credit card on file? Is it, getting that out to the patient electronically so they can pay… pay their bill?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Is it writing off bad debt if it's not going to be captured? Because we know that the further we get beyond that 90-day AR, especially the 120-day, the less likely we are going to collect those dollars. So we really want to.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Front-load this process as best we can to have all of those processes and information in place.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that we're capturing the dollars the first time around.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **is I talk with practices across the country, and do either of you guys have credit card on file that you…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That you use, and you automatically will bill the patient?
**Charu Sawhney: **I think we, we ask for it, and some people say yes, but we just haven't made it mandatory.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah. Do you have a threshold that you… you build? Do you have, like, hey.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm doing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **$50 is fine, or $100, or…
**Charu Sawhney: **I think it's 100, and if it goes above 100, then we…
**Charu Sawhney: **We have to, like, contact them, but if it's below, then it's automatic.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **control you.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And what about you, Vinika?
**Vineka: **We have credit card on fire for everyone, but…
**Vineka: **When it expires, or when the car changes, so that's a… and then we automatically charge them, like, we try to send reminders.
**Vineka: **25% of the time.
**Vineka: **And then… charge the credit card on file. But I think we can… Probably… where…
**Vineka: **And maximize that even a little bit more, where we will automatically charge you if
**Vineka: **There's a difference, or something like that.
**Vineka: **Hmm, because then we usually call, but I think we can… we can…
**Charu Sawhney: **Jenny, is Vinika breaking up for you?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, Vinika, is your… your internet's weird tonight.
**Vineka: **My computer is crazy tonight.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Charu Sawhney: **So, it was, it was one of the things that Athena did, like, when I did onboarding. Like, they did all of this, and I don't think I understood what…
**Charu Sawhney: **credit card on file meant, until I started going through some of the things, and I was like, oh, they get… they get charged automatically, and…
**Charu Sawhney: **Because, the problems I've had is, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **and I don't know how to do this, like, the people who are, like, the people who are coming in for weight management, and they're only paying cash.
**Charu Sawhney: **Even though they're set up for the right appointment type, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **Athena is still recognizing, oh, they have Blue Cross Blue Shield, and so they send them, like, a check-in link to, like… they send them a link to, like, pay their copay, which is fine, because then the copay just goes towards
**Charu Sawhney: **my… my consult fees, but I don't think there's a way for me to, like, stop that. I would have to manually stop it, and that's, like, some little things that I have to figure out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **A different visit type that actually.
**Charu Sawhney: **I have. I have. Yeah, so I have… I have a different visit type, and I have a different… but when I… when I have a fee schedule, so the fee schedule will tell Athena that this is not to be billed to insurance, but I don't think I've tied the visit type to not sending the link for the copay. So yeah, I could probably do that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because then that's the other piece, is that the patient's like, well, I paid, right? And now you want.
**Charu Sawhney: **Well, they, but they know. No, but they know. They know they only paid, like, 50 out of, you know, the still very cheap amount that I'm charging.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **God.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, good. I love that… I love that that is already set up for you, because that is huge, and… so do you… do either of you know any of these metrics for yourself? Do you know, what your average… I mean, you've been in
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But…
**Charu Sawhney: **No, but I meant, like, that's… I had a coaching call today to go over this with Adina, for them to tell me how to run these reports.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yup.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I still don't remember what KPI stands for, so I'm pretty.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Chief Performance Indicator.
**Charu Sawhney: **There we go. And then, of course, because of our internet issue, I had to reschedule, so… Okay. It is actively happening.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But now, as you engage in that conversation, and you are running these reports, now you know what to expect, because they're doing all of your billing for you, right?
**Charu Sawhney: **Yes, they're doing, like, a cursory, but they're… I didn't sign up for their advance plan, so they're not, like, going through my claims that didn't go through, or my, you know, like…
**Charu Sawhney: **But for now, I'm going through them so I can figure out the system, and then eventually, I don't want to do it, because it's too much.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But then you educate yourself so that you know what to expect from them, or, you know, what to expect as you're moving forward as well.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so that's… that's my… my hope, is as you're… as we're talking through these things, that then we become educated consumers, is, you know, as Vinika's talking with her billers, and that… that we have very finite, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **These claims are going out to the clearinghouse, and now they're coming back and filling in the gaps of those processes so that
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Each claim is followed to completion, so we're getting those dollars.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And so then, with this action checklist, just sort of some things that we want to be looking at on a daily basis, so that making sure that we have appropriate insurance eligibility on all of the patients. I know that,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that Florence is actually using a service that checks all of her eligibility. She's in neurology and, checks the eligibility on their patients so that they know,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **posting those payments on a… on a daily basis so that we're having those continued. And again, these aren't things that we're doing as the physician, but making sure that these are happening and flagging those denials so we can chase them, and then on a weekly basis, really understanding what that AR aging is looking like, and…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And who, again, as we get into that older, how we need to turn those
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do either of you have… have any prior auths that would expire? Vinika, do you have to prior off your…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Spravato and your TMS.
**Vineka: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **How often do you have… how long does that… is it a 12-month, or is it, like, a 90-day, or what does that look like for you?
**Vineka: **TM bus is per course, so that's 36 sessions, and that's probably…
**Vineka: **Depends on the insurance. Some of them…
**Vineka: **Start with just, like, 2 months, and then we have to… Do another off.
**Vineka: **And, some of them are 6 months, and some are 1 year. It kind of varies.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **How do you track those?
**Vineka: **Oh… I don't think we… I mean, like, my… this is more of a front… Lego, well, mine was…
**Vineka: **front office and back office kind of, like, share responsibility, so they kind of keep… they have their eyes on that all the time, and like, you know, like, we have… because we used to miss it, so now we have, like, a TMS sheet when they come in every day, and then we just added.
**Vineka: **columns there, like, okay, this is… just keep in mind that these insurances have really short prior off, so the treatments need to be completed within that time, and if not, if we know that the patient is missing more, then they start, like, we don't…
**Vineka: **We just extend the dates.
**Vineka: **But keep extending, so… My… so that my biller doesn't do that, my…
**Vineka: **But it… we also uploaded in the chart the prior authorization form in case the… Authorization number, or…
**Vineka: **I don't even know if they use it all the time, but it's there. It's available for them to use.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But you named it exactly. Like, this isn't something that you need to do, but you need to know that there are key players in your organization.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that are following this, right? That are following, so that when a patient is scheduled for their TMS, they know that this is session 24 of 36.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **and you've got 12 more that you can do, right? Or if it's Servada, they have the insurance that is, you know, off for 2 months, and you can schedule those treatments, but beyond that, you know that you've got to get a different prior auth, so…
**Vineka: **Yeah, the pharmacy will make sure to tell us.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah. Oh, do you find…
**Vineka: **around.
**Vineka: **No, I don't.
**Vineka: **Specialty pharmacy, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so you ordered.
**Vineka: **We don't do buy-in bill yet, because I'm too scared that…
**Vineka: **it falls through the cracks, and then, because the treatments are so frequent, that after 1 month, then I'm… I'm looking at $8,000, $10,000, or after 2 months, I… I need… what if you know nothing?
**Vineka: **$20,000.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right?
**Vineka: **dome.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No one… and those are real… those are real numbers, right? Same thing if, you know, like, in our clinic, we do Prolia, which is, again, it's a $2,000 expense, and…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right now we are doing a buy-in bill, and it's what we've always done, but it does not take very many for those to then eat out your profitability, right? And all of a sudden become…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **become an expense, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Char, are you doing any… any… are you planning to do any treatments like that, where you'll have a big expense like that?
**Charu Sawhney: **I don't think so.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **and…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I can't… I can't imagine… maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box, but right now, I can't imagine anything that…
**Charu Sawhney: **maybe Prolia would be, like, the only one I could think of,
**Charu Sawhney: **Or, or just the osteoporosis treatment, or even, like, reclassed, but…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, reclass you'd have to do is an infusion, but.
**Charu Sawhney: **Exactly, but that's different. So, yeah, usually, like, we would do Prolia, but it would be one of those where the patient would pick it up from the pharmacy, and then we would administer it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, they would just white-bag it, where… yeah, so that'd be, like, special pharmacy, so they bring it over to you, and you would give it to them. So the only thing you're dealing with is just the injection?
**Charu Sawhney: **Yes, and… and in that situation, I'm sorry.
**Charu Sawhney: **In that situation, hold on, baby, we… I wouldn't get paid for that, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So what?
**Charu Sawhney: **To give the injection.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, absolutely you would get paid for it.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'd have to ask… I don't… I know we did that in my other clinics, but I don't know what was charged, or what, you know, how they…
**Charu Sawhney: **How they managed it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It was one.
**Vineka: **I think the beauty of it is that, that you get… Oh, de…
**Vineka: **During the buy and build, because you can include the code of administering as well.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You can still use the code of administering even if you don't have… Even if you don't…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **if you use specialty pharmacy, it's just the procedure code, right? This is the conversation,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **and then I want to introduce you to Florence, but this was the conversation that we were having,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **with, carlene, Sue,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **who, you know, she's got rheumatology, and they do quite a few infusions, but one of the things that came up out of that conversation, because we use the… I think it's a 9…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Anyway, it's the standard injection code, like, the same one you would use to administer, like, a B12, or a testosterone, or Rocephin, but because Prolia is actually considered
**Jennie Eckstrom: **anti-neoplastic agent, because it's a monoclonal antibody, there is a different code that you can use. Let me just find it real quick.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That actually reimburses better. Now, there's the potential that that can cost share more with the patient as well.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But that's the one that we are… just looking at it. It is a… either a 96372, which is your standard injection code.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Versus a 96401.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… and this is… this is the value of, like, having conversations, you know, with groups who are doing things differently, because that's what they're doing in that rheumatology space, because of all of the… the agents that they're using, but that's something that has, like, some cross-applicability across specialties, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Come on.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I'll… I'll look into it. I mean, I'm… and we're eventually gonna end up seeing the people
**Charu Sawhney: **that need the injections, so I should know what to do before that happens.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Or at least know where to refer them, and then do a cost analysis to see if it makes sense.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You know, for you to do.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Florence, I wanted to introduce…
**Vineka: **Huge.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Sharu.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **She is an internal medicine physician in Austin, who just opened her practice 15 years of, of, internal medicine, and now.
**Florence Shum: **Super exciting.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, she's joining us!
**Charu Sawhney: **Thanks, Lauren.
**Florence Shum: **I'm so sorry I'm late, because I have family visiting, and we had dinner, just got back.
**Charu Sawhney: **It's okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… and Florence is in Brooklyn, in New York. She has… just is opening her second location in neurology, and has two PAs that work for her, and is expanding into a second space in
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Staten Island, right? Yes.
**Florence Shum: **Yes, that's it! Very good, yay!
**Charu Sawhney: **Okay, cool.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Charu Sawhney: **If you ever want to go out of state.
**Charu Sawhney: **Finding… actually, oh my god, both of you! Finding neurology and psychiatry is like talking to God in Austin.
**Charu Sawhney: **I… like, I'm not even kidding.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh my god.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm not kidding. I've had… I've had to do dementia, and I've had to do so many things that I've never, ever…
**Charu Sawhney: **ever had to do. There's nobody in neurology that sees post-stroke care or, or memory cognitive issues in Austin.
**Florence Shum: **Mmm.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, it's insane.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **In August?
**Florence Shum: **telemedicine has to do a lot of things. Like, primary care and telemedicine has to do a lot of things, so…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, but I think… I think the problem is, is, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **when you've just had a stroke, or, you know, you want to see the neurologist, even if it's just once, you know, and to, like, be told that you can't… it's only UT Austin in Central Austin. They have, like, a,
**Charu Sawhney: **They have, like, one, you know, academic clinic, but of course, because they're academic, they're booked out, so it is…
**Florence Shum: **I know. Even the hospital, when they discharge patients, even in New York, like, they… the patients can't get
**Florence Shum: **scene for follow-up until, like, months later, after their.
**Charu Sawhney: **In psychiatry, nobody takes insurance in Austin. All of my patients who actually see an actual psychiatrist and not an NP are, the psychiatrist that's in Houston or San Antonio.
**Charu Sawhney: **It's horrible. I'm just like, I keep begging everyone who's in psych, please take insurance, and they're like, no.
**Vineka: **The smell…
**Florence Shum: **Any color.
**Charu Sawhney: **I know.
**Florence Shum: **do they have telepsych? Like, we… there are not too many… I think, like, even psych in New York is also not too many who take.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **And then I have patients who tell me they go, like, they do online, a lot of virtual visits.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I think the problem with me is, is that
**Charu Sawhney: **I can handle basic psych, but the people I'm looking for are so complex, like…
**Charu Sawhney: **It's like they keep seeing, you know, they keep seeing a whole bunch of NPs and PAs, and I'm just like… and, you know, I've caught a couple of, like, really terrible cases of polypharmacy, and I'm sure, Vinika, you're not running your clinic that way. But it's… it's… so then… so then at the end of the day, you're like, oh my god, like, well, I can do better than this, and then I just figure it out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, we need to get to a place where… where we can encourage people to be back in independent practice and know how you can thrive.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And, you know… and it's a blend of payment models, right? So, you know, there are…
**Charu Sawhney: **Well, that… I was wondering that question. When I was doing my fee schedule, I saw, like, the different psychiatry codes versus the internal medicine codes, and in my head, I was thinking, I was like, oh, what if I took on somebody and, you know, like, a lot of my cognitive impaired patients, sometimes all of the visits are only just about, like, how to manage their
**Charu Sawhney: **you know, they're sundowning or whatever social issues they're having, could I use the site codes, or am I not allowed to because I'm not a psychiatrist?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't know that answer.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Vineka: **You're allowed to I mean, nurse practitioners do everything. You're allowed to do.
**Charu Sawhney: **Right?
**Vineka: **And you…
**Charu Sawhney: **We're the idiots who restrict ourselves.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **The question would be whether in… what insurance reimburses, and whether you are better off coding that…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Site code versus a time-based code.
**Charu Sawhney: **The site codes get paid more than medicine codes, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do they?
**Charu Sawhney: **But yeah, but…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You can see that in your insurers.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, yeah, I know that, even just from knowing what psychiatrists get paid, they get paid way more than we do.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, psychiatrists get… so their codes are more… they get paid more, like…
**Charu Sawhney: **Which was, I think, I think which was my thing. Like, I was like, man, they already get paid more by insurance companies, but I guess it's still not enough in terms of, like, making a business run, because
**Charu Sawhney: **they can't do the numbers game, right? Like, they can only see one patient an hour. They can't just stuff people in, so…
**Charu Sawhney: **But yeah, that's a good point. I'll look into that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, well, and that's how you can, you know, you can do some trials, and you can see which of your insurers
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You know, want to reimburse more versus… You know, versus the time.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… Okay, so, like I said, I just wanted to… hopefully this…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **this sort of summary, it's a lot of information, but it gives
**Jennie Eckstrom: **us some places to sort of evaluate, you know, what the processes are, you know, within your clinic, within your billing system, and again, because
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Nope.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Did you enter again? Oh, are you entering on your phone?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Gotcha.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I was like, Vanika 12? Who's Vinica 12?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… pay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Thoughts, comments?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, this is really helpful, because, like.
**Vineka 12: **Even though I have…
**Florence Shum: **My manager is the biller, like, she…
**Florence Shum: **doesn't really give me, like, weekly reports or monthly report. She kind of says, you know, whatever report you want, like, she asks… she kind of asked me, like, okay, what you want to see? I'm like, okay, I don't know what I need to see? But, like, you know,
**Florence Shum: **I said, like, at least, like, how many patients we're seeing, like, things like that, but, like, she's not… because I can run the A&R report, but then I feel like I need to see other things, right? Like, the zero pay, like, these, like, denial stuff, right? What is the,
**Florence Shum: **What is a claim scrubbing? What is the NCCI stuff? Is that, like…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so NCCI is basically… it's, it's CMS, and it's whether or not there need to have codes that are bundled together. So, you know, so, like obesity. So if you're doing, like, an obesity code, you also need to have the BMI code that goes with it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right, so there are certain codes that you can't… or, like, if you have a fall code.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **then you may need to have, like, the injury code that goes along with it. So it's just making sure that whatever of that bundling that needs to happen is already happening.
**Florence Shum: **Oh, because otherwise it gets denied if it's missing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It can get kicked out. So, and those are the pieces that, you know, as you're seeing the patient and maybe coding that
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You may not… you may not have, sort of, in the top of your mind.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, but there are certain codes that just can't go as standalone codes, and so need to have something else with them, and CMS oftentimes sets those rules, so that is the clearinghouse.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That they use.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But really, what you want to be having is sort of, like, is as your coders are doing that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **them coming back and saying, hey, this needs another code with it, is there another one that makes sense? So that it doesn't go to the place that it gets kicked out and denied because it didn't have. So that's sort of the scrubbing that happens before the claim, so it's a clean claim, as opposed to a denied claim.
**Florence Shum: **So, can I run a report for, like, to look for these bundle, like, things?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, what you are likely best off doing is actually, really starting to look at what your denials are, looking at your denial buckets, and I think, let's see, we had…
**Florence Shum: **Denial management?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so if you go at the very bottom of, I think this is page 8, it had sort of, like, the common denial categories. So, you know, so really looking at sort of these five. So, you know, is it the authorization issue? Is it a coding? And so that would be, again, if there were specific
**Jennie Eckstrom: **bundles that needed to happen, you know, if it wasn't medically necessary, if it wasn't timely filed, and if the patient wasn't eligible. So… but what you may start with your, you know, as you're talking to your team member is
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You know, you don't need to cover all of this in one month, but maybe what you say is like, hey, this month, let's really focus on, you know, perhaps we focus on our denials.
**Florence Shum: **And…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **and where those are happening.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Or, you know, really just picking, you know, of these, of these different, action lists.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **really understanding, you know, what… what is our AR days? Maybe you can already get that one, so you don't need to… to do that, but… but if we are heading out into that bucket that is in that 60 to 90 day, why is that, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that's really what this is designed to do, is to give you these pieces so that, you know, that you can ask, you know, very high-quality questions about your process, and then make decisions and changes
**Jennie Eckstrom: **In your standard operating procedures that then help prevent those downstream effects.
**Florence Shum: **Okay.
**Vineka 12: **So, Jenny, what… what is… because we're trying to build a report
**Vineka 12: **That's not too overwhelming, that the biller can…
**Vineka 12: **start doing. But right now, the consultant is trying to create one.
**Vineka 12: **I like much more detail, so I'm already having my VA do, you know, plug everyone that's been seen, so we… I can have it more granular for now, just to help me understand and not have to click… like, sure, it's a… it's a small
**Vineka 12: **sheet. It's a short report, but for me, it's like, for… at this point, there's been so many errors that I want to know the granular, so I'm… I'm still sticking to my Google Sheet with the
**Vineka 12: **you know, color code, and these are all the patients we've seen, blah blah blah, but the, the consultant showed me a
**Vineka 12: **pretty simple report. How many claims were submitted, how many were,
**Vineka 12: **I guess I… I mean, he just briefly showed me, so I don't remember all the columns, but it's very short. Is that something that… that you're… that, you know, that… that… is that the kind of report you're looking at, or…
**Vineka 12: **because this list is amazing, and it's very detailed, but are they actually doing that? Is that part of the biller's process, or how is that communicated to us?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… so right now, you are… you're at the place of saying, hey, does every person we see actually get a claim generated?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because you don't know, necessarily, the answer to that question.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right? Because… Right.
**Vineka 12: **Yeah, we're at the basics. So, for example, luckily, though, like, for January, when my VA did it.
**Vineka 12: **there's an invoice for everyone. That's awesome! But it looks like that wasn't happening before, but, oh, how many times do they miss it? So, from the granular, like, we need to… like, I feel like I need to know right now, but eventually, I wouldn't like… this is very cumbersome to go through each and every one, and…
**Vineka 12: **But it might also be too much for the biller to be doing, but what should we be expecting for
**Vineka 12: **From the biller, where there's so many issues, kind of.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, again, I think you need to build the process, right? So right now, you can't really say, you know, why are things being denied if you don't know that… or why aren't they being reported if you don't know that, first, that every encounter is generating a claim.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **starting there makes a whole lot of sense. And so… and then developing that process around understanding, you know, does your EMR already, like, create a… from the encounter to a claim? Does that happen automatically in your EMR?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It doesn't… it doesn't…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Does it generate an encounter that goes on the list for your biller to then know to generate a claim?
**Vineka 12: **No, so they would do it based on the calendar, so whoever was seen, then they would have to go and generate a claim for each person.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So they're basically using the patient list for that date of service.
**Vineka 12: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then from that, they are creating a claim.
**Vineka 12: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, and so how do you know that… that a date of service is complete?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Like, how do you know the claims are complete for that date of service?
**Vineka 12: **I think there's a way to…
**Vineka 12: **that's what the new kind of, like, the audit people, they said that we need to kind of create different reports, because right now, we need to kind of look at it from different angles, so that's one of them that she talked about, like, okay, from maybe the calendar view, we should be able to see whether
**Vineka 12: **she would be able to pull it, I think, from…
**Vineka 12: **Like, if every encounter has been invoiced on that day.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Vineka 12: **Right now, my biller is not doing it. I don't know, I mean, it's very haphazard the way she's doing it, but I think that's… that there are reports that can be generated for even that part.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, starting with that report, and I'm sort of thinking about what shows up in RMR, and you guys, please feel free to share what your process is, but we have Encounters Without Claims is one list.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then you can then also then filter encounters locked without claims.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So you know that encounters without… without claims that aren't locked aren't ready to be…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **the claim can't be created. But once they're locked, then that signals to the billers that then they can create that claim.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that's the first question that I would ask, because you need to make sure that you're all operating from that… that common space of patient seen.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Patient note done, ready to submit claim, or create claim.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so part of that hinges on you as the provider, right? Because your scheduler makes the appointment, you see the patient, you complete your documentation.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then your biller knows that… that that encounter now can be… can be billed. A claim can be created.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I would start in that process, and until you know that that process is moving fluidly, that's where you stay, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And you can…
**Vineka 12: **Yeah, I'm kind of lucky, not lucky, that an invoice is being generated even when the note is not signed.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, some coders, or some coders and billers will not, will not submit a claim until the note's signed.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Just because from a… like, that's like a… and we found this, like, people are coming out of coding training, that that is something that's really being drilled into them.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that… The note that's being billed out is actually the final note.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But… but anyway, but so starting at that process, and having that way to know, and whether that's from a report that says, these are the patients that was… that were seen on this day, and the claims have been generated.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And… and I would really challenge your EMR to come up. That's not a complicated report.
**Florence Shum: **Vanika, is it because your EMR and the practice management is not, like, the same thing?
**Florence Shum: **Do you use, like, a separate practice manager?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, yeah, that…
**Vineka 12: **I don't think for this report. I think she can still generate it, I just… I think that because we weren't…
**Vineka 12: **generating reports is the whole problem. I think there's lots of things that we can do with the EHR that I'm finding out now, that we just haven't been using, and now that everything is so chaotic, the reports are not actually accurate, because
**Vineka 12: **the AR is so off, because the more than 120 days is including so many other things, but I think,
**Vineka 12: **it is possi… that one, it's possible to generate, and I think there's also… she was telling me there's a setting in the EHR that could automatically generate the invoice. There is that possibility as well. And the other problem was that they were doing it by visit types.
**Vineka 12: **because the… this probato is very easy to code. It's the same code all the time, except for the different, you know, 99417 versus G2212, and then TMS is all the same, so they would create it based on what they would see, and then the office codes depended on me, so they were also doing it separately. So I think that's…
**Vineka 12: **When we shift from coding her… sorry, submitting claims by types versus now
**Vineka 12: **starting last… actually, this month, I… I'm like, okay, no, you can just do it by calendar date. That's also gonna simplify things, so I can be less of a bottleneck.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, and then you know a day is done. If a day is done, the day is done. And then they move forward, versus, like, do I need to keep… keep going?
**Vineka 12: **Going back and forth, right.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so right now, you are in that space of really trying to create those processes that can be replicated over and over and over again.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So… so that we're not… because every time we have to have a human making another decision about, you know, what it… what do I need to do with this one, then that just brings in opportunity for error.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **The more you can standardize this process so that you have, you know, set expectations, then you can hold, you know, you can hold your people accountable to those expectations, and they either can do it, or they can't.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Vineka 12: **So you're saying that the more detailed… so my…
**Vineka 12: **So now, it is worth it to do something that is very detailed, so we can catch
**Vineka 12: **the things, right? Or what do you think?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **so the… the detail really comes downstream, right? So what is the detail that you're… that you're looking… like, help me understand your question. Is that…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Did it not happen? Did it get denied? Did it get…
**Vineka 12: **Oh…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Help me understand the kind of detail that you are wondering if you should track right now.
**Vineka 12: **So, for example, with the help of AI, I… there's this, I created this huge Excel sheet that has a lot of information, so date of service, CPT codes, was the invoice submitted, was the,
**Vineka 12: **what was the submitted date? Was it accepted by Clearinghouse? Was it paid by insurance? What was the paid amount? What is… was the copy collected? Was it posted?
**Vineka 12: **on the EHR, so it's pretty long. Was there an issue? What kind of issue was there? And then I can make it even more complicated if I add some of the things that you added here, but that will help us catch
**Vineka 12: **even more things, but is it worth even doing that? I mean, it's helping me
**Vineka 12: **in the sense that I can… I can kind of…
**Vineka 12: **in a way, audit the biller when she's coming up with things, but it's not sustainable. Like, that's not the kind of report we want to look at.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No. So, what I would recommend that you consider doing is really… right now, it is… scene…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Claim generated, claim submitted, back from the clearinghouse, reconciled.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then, if it's not, then that's sort of the… what happened.
**Vineka 12: **Right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So you're going to want to dive into that granular detail, but hopefully on a small subset of your claims.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right? Right now, I think you can still have quite a 10,000-foot view, but maybe, like, a 500-foot view.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right? And you don't need to drill into the, you know… I mean, and girl, I love me a spreadsheet, and I did the same thing on my APCM, because I'm like, I want to know how many dollars. I was like, I can do this in 400 patients.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That's silly. So instead, I just did a report, was a claim submitted? Was the G0577 submitted? Yes, no, and if not, why weren't these submitted? And that's when I went back and found out that it was a manual process, right?
**Vineka 12: **And…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, really, if you can just, again, have things be a yes or no question.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And when it's a no, then those are the ones you're going to want to… to do a deeper dive to say why, and look for the patterns. Does that make sense?
**Vineka 12: **Yes, and I think that's what the consultant is…
**Vineka 12: **Is trying to say, like, let's just start with how many were submitted.
**Vineka 12: **They were rejected, and then let's go from there.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and then when they're rejected, then that's the why. That's where you dive in and say, is it an eligibility? Is it a timely filing? Is it the coding and documentation? Is it a… it got sent to the wrong clearinghouse, right? That's where you want to
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do that deeper dive.
**Vineka 12: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Vineka 12: **Thank you.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Vineka 12: **Florence is looking so pensive.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, you're muted.
**Florence Shum: **I wish I had this when I started more than 5 years ago.
**Florence Shum: **I mean, I feel like I was, like, going on the fly, like, okay, what kind of report should I be running? And then, like, intermittently, I'll run certain reports.
**Florence Shum: **And trying to make sense of things,
**Florence Shum: **So I hear you, like, Vanika, sometimes it's kind of like, do I… I feel like I need to know the big picture, and I also need to know the small picture, right? So,
**Florence Shum: **Like, my, my EMR can at least, like, I can see at least the end of the day, or a certain period of time, if there are any missing slips, or anything that we did not fill.
**Florence Shum: **So, for… when I first started, I remember I was holding all the… Claims.
**Florence Shum: **Until I would, like, close all my notes and, like, have everything, like, all the EEG reports and all of that done before I would submit it.
**Florence Shum: **But now I've decided, like, I think I was holding it for, like, a month, and then someone said, no, you cannot do that, because there's a
**Florence Shum: **time filing period that you have to submit. I was like, oh, shoot.
**Florence Shum: **So that's when I was like, you know what, I'll just submit it. And then, because I know the reports will be done.
**Florence Shum: **Like, you know, within a month's time, for sure. So that's why I've been doing it that way, and then just get uploaded. And then if the insurance company does request for it, then we have… then we will submit it. Sometimes they, like, kind of, like.
**Florence Shum: **Sometimes they do kind of come as a denial, but because they're just looking for that report.
**Florence Shum: **Boom.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and they will come back and want to have documentation. Sometimes they'll want to see notes to justify, but hopefully that's not on all of your claims, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Florence Shum: **But yes, closing the note on a timely fashion, it's still a challenge.
**Florence Shum: **Charting, yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Always.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Always.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Good.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **One of the things I want to do as we sort of wrap up our time tonight is I would love to, add a little bit of an accountability piece to this.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Sort of the things that… that looking into this, like, next…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you know, four weeks, this next month of as we start into April this week, like, what… what… what item or piece that you're working on that we can provide some accountability around?
**Vineka 12: **I'm, so as we were talking, I had all this goal last week, like, yeah, I'm gonna put the code… it needs to be coded, at least if the note is not there, the codes need to be there, and it's Monday, and I forgot, it's just two days I've been off for just the weekend, and
**Vineka 12: **I forgot, so I was adding my CPT codes right now.
**Vineka 12: **So I want to do it on the same day for me, because as soon as I… I fall off the…
**Vineka 12: **groove, like, I… I… then I delay forever.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's very easy to do.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So easy.
**Vineka 12: **The other thing that I, that we started is
**Vineka 12: **I just enrolled in the telehealth, because I had a different system for telehealth, which means that the visit type wasn't coming down as telehealth, so now I can put… I, while doing the codes, I can put that for the biller as well, that will…
**Vineka 12: **smoothen the pros… like, smooth the process, at least on my end. I will…
**Vineka 12: **maybe not right away, but I would eventually like to start finishing my notes.
**Vineka 12: **on this, you know, I don't want to even say on the same day, but… Soon.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You're using AI, aren't you? You have an AI scribe?
**Vineka 12: **Yeah, I have an AI scribe, and then I have a VA, so she hasn't posted my note yet.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Vineka 12: **she copy-pastes it because, the… the scribes that I want to use don't, they, they don't integrate with Charm.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So it's a manual process.
**Vineka 12: **It's a manual process, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Minus as well.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, when you integrate, it's a lot more expensive.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But can you…
**Charu Sawhney: **I think charm… But I think CHARM is one of the, it's a really great…
**Charu Sawhney: **it's a really great tool for psychiatrists, but I think that's the problem. It's really basic, right? And it's… and its functionalities.
**Vineka 12: **Yeah, it's really clunky for even the forms, like, I was talking about how we can digitalize some of our forms, but even that is…
**Vineka 12: **like, for example, it won't add the scores of a PHQ-9, and it's like, hello, like…
**Charu Sawhney: **Have you ever… I know that Practice Fusion is also another free EHR, but
**Charu Sawhney: **that might be worthwhile as you're starting to, like, automate some of this stuff, because I don't think it's gonna happen with charm.
**Vineka 12: **Yeah, Practice Fusion is… is… we actually use the… the claim management firm Practice Fusion, which is Office Ally, so they're.
**Vineka 12: **is practice fusion, but it's… it's…
**Vineka 12: **at least Charm is readable, and it looks simple. It's clunky on the other, you know.
**Charu Sawhney: **No, the question.
**Vineka 12: **Questionnaires are clunky, but practice fusion is a headache to even look at, unless it looks much prettier now, but when I looked.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, I see. I just knew…
**Vineka 12: **friendly.
**Charu Sawhney: **It was just one of the ones that I was…
**Charu Sawhney: **I was looking at as a free EHR, because there was another family practice doctor that was using it that I, like, consulted with.
**Charu Sawhney: **But in the end, I ended up choosing probably the most expensive one, just because of everything that it did.
**Charu Sawhney: **And… because I…
**Florence Shum: **Dude, huh?
**Charu Sawhney: **Athena?
**Florence Shum: **Oh, that's what I have!
**Charu Sawhney: **Yay! And because, it's…
**Charu Sawhney: **the data sharing is just invaluable, like, I get everyone's notes, and I know for psych, it's not as…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah. But, Vanika, like, there's, like, I've heard from other… before, when I was looking for, like, forms and stuff, like.
**Florence Shum: **JotForm, and, like, IntakeQ, or something like that, like, that kind of sometimes can…
**Florence Shum: **Get, like, patient… enter the information, gets kind of into the chart, at least.
**Florence Shum: **Something like that. I think you probably.
**Vineka 12: **Yeah, I think it's worth looking into. So, my… that consultant, he… he is able to do, like, a kiosk system.
**Vineka 12: **Because I want to make it paperless eventually, because there's a lot of scanning that my MAs need to do that's, like, just a waste of time. So that's what we're looking at next.
**Vineka 12: **Where the… with a kiosk, they can just do it right away.
**Vineka 12: **But we'll see, there's other… yeah, like, we already have, like, an Excel sheet that my MA actually created that, but then that will require…
**Vineka 12: **Downloading and uploading into the chart, whereas
**Vineka 12: **With the questionnaires, it's already there.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **And when… when is this accountability goal for? Next week, or two weeks? I'm just trying to…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **This is… this is for the month of April.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so, like, what… what piece are we working for toward this… this month?
**Charu Sawhney: **So… I think the one thing, like, I realized
**Charu Sawhney: **I do a lot of POCT testing.
**Charu Sawhney: **like, point-of-care testing in the clinic, and it's basic stuff like, hemoglobin A1C, but I know that I can get, like, 30 bucks for a hemoglobin A1C, and I think last week I realized that I think there might be, like, 5 or 6 that I didn't.
**Charu Sawhney: **I didn't do, and I'm like, okay, I'm sure it's easy for me to pull up
**Charu Sawhney: **But just… what I… what I do is, Florence, it reminds me of what you just said, where you were like, I have to finish everything, and then I can submit, right?
**Charu Sawhney: **I will get so caught up in…
**Charu Sawhney: **the process of how do I figure out which people I skipped
**Charu Sawhney: **coding the A1C on, that I'll… I won't do it.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm trying to get out of my way. One is simple things like this. Like, I recognized… and it might be, like, 5 or 10 people, right? But still, that could be, like, $300, $400. And,
**Charu Sawhney: **this is probably something, like, I just need to say, like, I need to tell my front desk staff or my nurse, like, hey, just figure it out. Like, I don't know how to do it, but you figure it out. Run the report, figure out, you know, who I ran a POCT A1C on, and who I didn't bill, so I can go back and adjust.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do you guys keep a log?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **for…
**Charu Sawhney: **-
**Jennie Eckstrom: **BRCLIA? I mean, that's one thing, is like… because who's running the test? Are you doing that as your nurse?
**Charu Sawhney: **- my nurse is doing that, and eventually my MA will be doing it, and I need to ask her about that, because I remember… I don't know…
**Charu Sawhney: **I don't know if they ran…
**Charu Sawhney: **I don't know if they did logs. We do logs anymore, because you can print out the report from the machine, or maybe we can just do that. We can just print out the report from the machine. Genius, see? Look at that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Can you template, your… can you create a template for…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **your POCT that includes your CPT code for your lab tests, so that when you… I have really found, like, I template everything, right? So, if I'm gonna go cryotherapy something, I throw in my cryotherapy code that already has my CPT,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **on it. If I'm doing a depression questionnaire, I throw over my code that already has the, hey, I reviewed their PHQ-9.
**Charu Sawhney: **So I, I think what I want to do is… that's another good point, is, like, I think I need to… I need to make that… whoever's running the test needs to put in the code.
**Charu Sawhney: **And so I… like, I think that's… because that's how it used to be. Not in… not when I was in Austin, but when I used to live in Houston.
**Charu Sawhney: **I didn't even know that vaccines and all of these things required codes, because I never put in those codes. It was the MA who did it and put in the code, so I think that's going to be the first thing, and then…
**Charu Sawhney: **I still… that's a side question that I have for you. I… I review everyone's PHQ-9 and GED on every single visit, but if you're not spending at least 15 minutes on that topic, I have encoded it, so I'm doing…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Usually, it's half of that time, and actually, for the AWV, the annual wellness visit, depression code,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You actually can bill that twice a year, and it doesn't require a time requirement.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, and it wasn't… it was not even about my Medicaid… with my Medicare patients, it's actually just with my private pay patients, that I… I always review it, because sometimes they're not even there for that, but I'll be like, your GAD… your GAD was, like, 15 out of 21, what's going on? You know? But I'm not… I'm not capturing that. And then the other thing is, is that
**Charu Sawhney: **you know, it's kind of like a blessing and a curse. It's like, I have all these notes from specials.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I have this, like, really horrible impulsion to, like, make all the red go away in the chart, and it's bad.
**Charu Sawhney: **like, all the quality measures, and I'm like, oh, I can find it, I can find it, and… and I actually don't have issues closing my notes, because I'm doing it as I'm going along, and I'm like, boom, boom, boom, done, done, done.
**Charu Sawhney: **But I'm getting caught up when I'm seeing people for the first time, because I'm like, oh, I'll go back and capture all of this stuff, and then I'll close it.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I think I just… I really need to push myself to just…
**Charu Sawhney: **It's just like, you… you have a limited amount of time, and whatever you can get, you can get. The rest you'll get at the next visit.
**Charu Sawhney: **Because I am… I'm kind of behind in my notes, and that's not something that usually happens with me, so I kind of…
**Charu Sawhney: **I need to… I need to get back to… and the reason why I'm behind in my notes is because I'm getting too…
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm getting too into the weeds on everyone.
**Charu Sawhney: **So I think I wanna… I think until I do those two things, I won't free up the time to be able to figure out how to do the CCM and the APCM, just, you know, like, I won't figure out how to do any of those, like, chronic care management pieces until I free up a little bit of my… my documentation time.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And just realizing that you have… you are developing a longitudinal relationship, so you will have that opportunity.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **continue to populate.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That chart.
**Charu Sawhney: **And… and my patients were so sweet, you know? Like, back… I feel like when I worked at other companies, like, they would keep my schedule so booked.
**Charu Sawhney: **that I would have this, like, neat… I was like, oh, well, I have to do everything today, because my schedule's booked for 2 months. But now, I'm not booked for 2 months, and they're like, sure, I'll come back in a month, right? Like, they just feel like I'm being more thorough and wonderful, so, like, I'm like, I need to, like… like, I feel like I'm holding on to a lot of, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **like, bad habits from just… or trauma, almost, from, like, working for these other companies that had so many restrictions on me. So that's kind of… I would say that's my goal, is I want to get to a point where I'd be, like… I might have, like, one or two notes from the day before, but, like, no more.
**Charu Sawhney: **you know.
**Charu Sawhney: **Because there's no need for that, because you should, you know… I look at some of the cardiologist's notes, and I'm like, how are you guys allowed to practice? Like, there's, like, one sentence, and you know those assholes got paid way more than I did for my, like, my three-page note, so, like, I need to let it go. Like, I'm…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm not… I'm not doing myself a service.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You don't have to have the best note in the whole VA.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I remember being that person, so… Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Florence, what about you?
**Florence Shum: **I… I'm going to… I'm just looking at the… what's that page?
**Florence Shum: **The action checklist. I'm gonna work on that, on page 6.
**Florence Shum: **Hi.
**Florence Shum: **So I want to be able to really run those things, like.
**Florence Shum: **Daily, weekly, weekly? Yeah, these are…
**Florence Shum: **really good. Like, the denial stuff, I haven't really looked into that. Like, the denial, the zero pay, and really just understanding, you know, because, Charlie, you have, Athena, and it's not that… I don't know, like, some… one thing in the report is not that easy, because it's so robust, like, the…
**Florence Shum: **the EMR is so robust that, like.
**Charu Sawhney: **it can do everything for you, but… but I think… so there are coaching calls, did you know about this?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, yeah, coaching call to do reports, basically, right?
**Charu Sawhney: **to do rev… it's revenue. It's like,
**Charu Sawhney: **I think it's cycle revenue, and I'm… yeah, revenue cycle management, and, like, even though I've done the training, I'm like, I don't remember, so I just really want somebody to show me in real time, and I take notes, and then… and then I'll… I'll just do it. Like, I learn… so I would say…
**Charu Sawhney: **Because half, like, half the battle is figuring out how to do it.
**Florence Shum: **Yes.
**Charu Sawhney: **you know, even though Athena is so robust, it's not intuitive on what buttons to press and how to create the report.
**Florence Shum: **And there's so many things that you can, like, filter through.
**Florence Shum: **You know, to get, like, to, to, to see what I want to see.
**Florence Shum: **Right.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, and half the time, there's all these fields that you can fill out, but when you're being told how to do the report, they're like, oh no, skip all of that, just do this and this.
**Charu Sawhney: **And I was like, that just saved me so much time, because if I was trying to do this on my own, I would think that I have to fill out all these fields. And, it… I just think you should just schedule, like, one session, have them be like, I want to do this, this, and this, and…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, I'm gonna give… I'm gonna ask them to do… help me do Jenny's List, okay? Can you one me, like, that denial?
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, no, they will, and they'll show you how to do it, and it's probably, like, you're so far out from, like, when you, when you first signed up.
**Charu Sawhney: **But I think the coaching calls are available
**Charu Sawhney: **Always, you just have to schedule it.
**Charu Sawhney: **I can send you the… I can send you the link.
**Florence Shum: **Okay, great, because it's like… because it changes, you know, Athena, like, changes all the time, because they have all these updates, so every time when I look into the support, it, like, it used to be really easy to click a button.
**Charu Sawhney: **It's so confusing.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, it's so confusing, you have to create a case, I think, for coaching, but, like… No. Oh, in the past, like,
**Florence Shum: **you basically… there's a live person, even, like, you can create case.
**Florence Shum: **anymore.
**Charu Sawhney: **Well, I think you have to… yeah, you're right. It's like you have to have the link. If you don't have the link.
**Charu Sawhney: **You have to find it, but no, there's a… there's a… there's… you can just type in… you can just request for a live coaching appointment, and then they send you an email to actually set up the appointment.
**Florence Shum: **Okay, okay, I'll check on that, because it wasn't, like, as easy as before.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I… I think I have access to this, because I'm still in my onboarding time.
**Florence Shum: **Mom.
**Charu Sawhney: **So I think it's different, but I'll,
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I can get your email address, and I can send it to you, because…
**Florence Shum: **solving.
**Charu Sawhney: **Bye.
**Charu Sawhney: **I have to reschedule.
**Florence Shum: **And then I've changed, you know, the… they also… the EMR, like, you know, they… they changed the CSM person also, like, a few times.
**Florence Shum: **The customer service manager, like, they also changed, like, a few times, too.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, that sucks.
**Florence Shum: **Yay!
**Charu Sawhney: **Because you develop a relationship with one person.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, I think my onboarding person, they… I think I had 3 or 4.
**Florence Shum: **my onboarding process, because it was, like, a little bit long, like, where I was… yeah, so it was really…
**Charu Sawhney: **Well, my CSM… My CSM person said that a lot of the doctors don't even use
**Charu Sawhney: **like, they don't even schedule the regular meetings, and to me, I'm like, oh no, every other week I'm having a meeting with this person, because I… I get the most information out of them, so…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, and then you get that one on one time, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, that… that entrepreneur, sort of, that CEO-level time, where you're really, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Like, what do I need to know about my business?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, exactly, exactly. I need to take advantage of that, too, and then they…
**Charu Sawhney: **Because they're so robust, they'll just do it for you, you just have to know how to access it.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, exactly, and she's like, okay, I…
**Florence Shum: **like, and I was telling Jenny before that I was running these… trying to run these reports, like, it's very simple, like, how many patients do you…
**Florence Shum: **my PAC, like, over a period of time, and then the number I got was, like, very different from the number my CSM got. I was like, oh my god, like, like a 300…
**Florence Shum: **like, visits difference. I said, that's a huge difference, not 3 people, it's like 300.
**Florence Shum: **So, I wasn't… and then it turns out I wasn't running it, like, correctly. So when she showed it to me, I was like, oh, that's how you run it, okay. Because also, like, you know, when… because my front desk does the coding, right? So they… they… the appointment type, or whatever, it's… one thing is mislabeled.
**Florence Shum: **When you run that report, it would not be correct.
**Charu Sawhney: **And you just… that is… and that's it, like, that's what I've learned about Athena. I've been like, it's so good, but you have to be told how to do it, and I've just let that go. I've just… I just know that I'll never know how to do it by myself.
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm just always gonna have to ask, and I'm fine with that.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, I'm okay with that, too. I'm like, if someone can just run it for me, like.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, energy running. By the way.
**Charu Sawhney: **They… they have that. They have those services.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, cause, like, I don't need to do everything by myself, right?
**Florence Shum: **So… but I'm gonna try to, like, get it down by the end of the month.
**Florence Shum: **For sure, so that I know, okay, I can just get the denial report, and I know, like, if it's trending down, trending up, that's really important.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and you may decide that you want to pick, like, one from each of this list, right? So, like, setting, you know, setting goals that we can… can achieve and… and keep moving, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yes. Okay, so then for this month, do Mondays still work for office hours?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, it was good.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, good. So that's what we'll… we'll still keep this same, sort of, 6-hour… So, Taru, we have a WhatsApp group. I think you just need… do you use WhatsApp?
**Charu Sawhney: **I do, and somebody added me, but I don't… nobody's said anything, I think, so I…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so that was Jersey, so she's my VA.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah. Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, I think you just have to accept it. So, and then, perfect.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I'm there.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yay!
**Florence Shum: **Awesome.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so that will now be a space that…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **We're all in. So, the, the links for the, the office hours will be in there. They should also be in your email.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And I think I had jurors, send you a… were you able to get in? I think I had to resend the password. Maybe that's what happened when you got it, as we were chatting earlier.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I got in, but
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm hope… I'm just signed in. Every time I say I want to change my password, it won't… it just doesn't send me a new link, so it's okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so then the other, and I'm gonna drop this in, just so you guys have… I'll drop it in WhatsApp, so Jersey is,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **is my VA, and so she's, admin.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **at Uncluttered Mind.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So feel free to reach out. She's, you know, she's in the Philippines, so, she's off hours from us, but…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But I'll just drop that email so you have that resource.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **as well.
**Charu Sawhney: **Oh, and Natasha's also in this group.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yep.
**Charu Sawhney: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **She's doing about… well, she's got lots of stuff going on, so… So, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Alright, you guys, so I will see you next Monday, and feel free to reach out if there's anything that comes up in the meantime.
**Florence Shum: **Just one question, because I'm just looking at the chat.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah?
**Florence Shum: **because Vinika asked about the PH… I mean, the CPT code, like, this is the.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, do you use for the GAD review? Let me get back to you on that, because that's in my…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that's in my EMR, but I… I have one that I use,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **for adolescents, and I have one that I use for my Medicare patients.
**Florence Shum: **Mmm.
**Vineka 12: **The DHQ-9 and the GAD?
**Vineka 12: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and I can't, I'll have to… I'll have to log in, but I, and…
**Florence Shum: **I didn't even know there's two… I didn't even know you can bill for the GAT.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I usually… it's primarily the depression screening code that I use, and I just create a note that indicates that I reviewed that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I do one for my PHQA, I think it's the same code, but let me get those…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So it's really just… it's the depression screening code, or the depression assessment. There's one for screening, one for assessment, and then one for Medicare.
**Florence Shum: **Oh, wow. Oh. Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Florence Shum: **Oh, 3 different codes, okay, yeah, I don't think I thought about that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **to… I try to pick up as many of those little add-on pieces as I can.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, like, even, like, smoking cessation, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that's 3 minutes.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right? It does not taste.
**Charu Sawhney: **Erin, I am losing so much money, I, like, what the hell?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I got a template, like, that's the only way. You can't have to, like, think of, like, oh, now I gotta, now I have to, like, think of the code that I'm doing with this, so…
**Charu Sawhney: **You know, I think I have to work on Athena with that to template it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Can… yeah, do you have… can you pull in, like… like, I… in ECW, I have probably…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, so…
**Charu Sawhney: **can.
**Florence Shum: **I have an order set for that, like, smoking…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **cessation.
**Florence Shum: **Well…
**Charu Sawhney: **Not… no, but she's talking about CPT codes.
**Charu Sawhney: **She's talking about.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Great.
**Charu Sawhney: **Billing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, so…
**Charu Sawhney: **Billing…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **What I can do is I can… I can attach a ICD-10,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **with a note that goes into my treatment, which is also attached to the CPT.
**Florence Shum: **You can do that, too, for order sets, I think it…
**Charu Sawhney: **Yes, yeah, you're right, you're right. The order set… I forgot that the order set can include the code.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so I try…
**Charu Sawhney: **I'm…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Some of those, I also have something that pops up into my HPI, just so that I know that I've already coded it, so I don't add it in.
**Florence Shum: **And then also, you know, you can even use, like.
**Florence Shum: **like, encounter plan. I don't really use that, but, like, encounter plan, where, like, if the patient comes in for, like, whatever reason, and then that triggers it, you know? Like, and then you can then, from that reason, let's say, like, well visit, and then it populates your whole, like, exam… Yeah.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Like, that can be very helpful. I'm just not so good at, like, creating all the templates.
**Florence Shum: **To fully utilize it.
**Charu Sawhney: **Yeah, I try to create them as I see the patient, so that way… because you never have time to do it, like, separately.
**Florence Shum: **Encounter plans, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, there's always… there's always something else to learn, but again, we're just trying to find those things that we can
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Add-on… let me see…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **like, what can we continue to layer and capture, right? We don't go back and say, what did I miss?
**Florence Shum: **You're already ahead of the game, Charu.
**Florence Shum: **The weird, you're joining Jenny's!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **96127 is the brief emotional assessment.
**Florence Shum: **food.
**Charu Sawhney: **That's what she said.
**Charu Sawhney: **But I'm also in a piss-poor specialty, that's why. Because you have to.
**Charu Sawhney: **Like, I'm not accidentally making money, like, if I don't do this, I'm gonna have to shut my business.
**Charu Sawhney: **I think that's… that's the reason why.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you just… Just keep adding pieces on, and you'll… okay, yeah, so we are billing the same one.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **There's another screening code, but I'll have to look at that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I think it's a different one, but I have to look at my templates, because again, I don't have room in my brain to remember these codes, so…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I just remember the template. Like, I got a template for that.
**Florence Shum: **So this one, this code is for, like, reviewing the PHQ-9, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and I usually have a blurb that… that goes with it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That will say…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **What's my blurb?
**Charu Sawhney: **I think I got discouraged because I used it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It'll say…
**Charu Sawhney: **I saw.
**Charu Sawhney: **And it rejected it, so I was like, ugh, forget it, let me stop.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So I'll usually say, 8 minutes spent reviewing PHQ-9 GAD7, discuss current management of depression.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Is usually my blurb.
**Vineka 12: **Say that again?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **8 minutes spent reviewing PHQ-9 GAD7, discussed current management of depression.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that's usually what I'll… that's… that's sort of my templated…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **response, and that's one that I've sort of sat down and looked at and said.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I think with this patient, it was like, do we want to wean your sertraline yet? Do you want to sit on it for a while? You know, so… And now, obviously, that detail is captured in my…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **In my… in my narrative, but for the CPT2 code, or the CPT code, it needs to have that time-based piece.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that… so I just template anything that needs time is already templated. So, like, this tobacco cessation, I have one that's a 3 to 10, right?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You try to figure out how many pack years somebody smoked, it takes you 3 minutes.
**Florence Shum: **Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You started smoking when you were 19, and you smoked.
**Charu Sawhney: **For 10 years.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **God.
**Charu Sawhney: **My nurses look at me like I'm crazy, and I'm like, guys, I have to determine if they meet the criteria for lunch.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Thanks for.
**Charu Sawhney: **Like, this is really important.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Absolutely.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, I'm gonna let you guys get on with your evening. I love the energy, and I will see you next week, okay?
**Charu Sawhney: **Bye, thank you.
**Vineka 12: **Thank you.
**Florence Shum: **Alright.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Bye.