# **CBF Session – February 27**
**Jennie Eckstrom: **what… tell me where you guys are at. I sort of threw you a little bit into the deep end, and that was a little bit intentional, so that there's a little bit of overwhelm, we get that out of the way, and then we step back a little bit. So.
**Florence Shum: **So I… actually, so what I did on the spreadsheet was that, I only looked at my, senior PA, because I have two PAs. I have the senior PA, who's been with me for, like.
**Florence Shum: **4 years.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, almost 4 years now, so in June… so then I have data, right, to look at.
**Florence Shum: **So before, I kind of have everything in my head, like, okay, I think she's productive. I think when I first talked to you about it, I was like, I think she's productive, I think she did this much, but, you know, at the end, like.
**Florence Shum: **you know, what they say, if you don't actually measure it, you don't really know, right?
**Florence Shum: **And for the longest time, part of it is, like, my EMR, like, just getting the numbers, to making sure that it's accurate.
**Florence Shum: **Right? Because it's a different way of running these reports.
**Florence Shum: **And I've been having my office manager do it, and then when I was, asking, like, other…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **what do you call that? Like, the CSM, the customer service manager of the EMR to run it, like, they were having.
**Florence Shum: **like, discrepancy. I was like, oh my god, like… that took, like, actually, like, at least 2 weeks to really make sure that how we run the numbers makes sense, that it would be accurate, so that I can tell her, like, what's…
**Florence Shum: **you know, like, how to… moving forward to really track it, like, properly. So that was really helpful. That made me really need to do it, right?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, so then…
**Florence Shum: **So I need the… I need the Roger to get all the other components, like the payroll taxes, like, the benefits, like, these other things that we don't really…
**Florence Shum: **think about, and I… when it comes to, like, her calls, I'm just thinking, like, her salary, but it's a lot more than just a salary.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And you could, for right now.
**Florence Shum: **could…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I would use just, in general, like, a 30% Of her salary, because that…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You know, so again, so that you don't get so caught up in looking for the finite numbers that it.
**Florence Shum: **the actual number, right? It estimates. So, I was thinking… I think I used, like, ChatGPT, too, and then they estimated, like, 20%, but… Okay.
**Florence Shum: **I think it depends on the state, right? Like, I mean, we pay a lot of taxes in New York City, too.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, yeah, and so then the other piece is whether, you know, what you're contributing to, insurance, and what you're contributing. So I think those are a little bit broken up. I gotta pull that up.
**Florence Shum: **Yes, that's true.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **and again, this is a place to start, and then as you get more finite numbers, you can… you can really fine-tune this. Was this the employee that, that had taken all the… the PTO?
**vin: **Don't have too high.
**Florence Shum: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah…
**Florence Shum: **He took, pretty much
**Florence Shum: **More PTO this year so far, so her anniversary, like, starts in July, right? Almost like a… it just so happens she started, like, very end of June, so that's her anniversary, but she's basically taken, like, all 20 days of PTO.
**Florence Shum: **Right? But, she's willing to…
**Florence Shum: **like, make up for the days, because she still needs to take more days, because of, like, the Jewish holidays.
**Florence Shum: **And her daughter, it's, she's having another grandchild, so she wants to be there for her grandchild.
**Florence Shum: **So she's like, okay, I will, like, just work more days so that she's not having… so she can bank those.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you know, days instead. Otherwise, you would be… those would be unpaid. I mean, she understood that.
**Florence Shum: **But that's part of the reason why she was less productive.
**Florence Shum: **She's just not available. She wasn't working.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well… But again, as you're looking at that expense, recognizing that when you have PTO, whether it's vacation
**Jennie Eckstrom: **sick, whatever, that is an expense that's spread out over the course of a year, right? And so, if they do take a two-week vacation, obviously that month is not going to be productive, but…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You can still use that metric of, you know, really, like, productivity per day, so pay.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, so that's… yeah, that's what I did with the formula, how you worked, like, how many days, actual days you worked, and then, like, how many patients, how many visits, right? Yeah, that's… I did that. For last year, she did, like, about 15 patients, like, 15.5 patients a day.
**Florence Shum: **It's, I'm happy with that, you know, because I know some of our patients are complicated. Like, if she sees 20 patients, that means she's not gonna be having enough time with each patient.
**Florence Shum: **and then… so, using the same formula, so I just did, like, you know, from July to January, like, 6 months, or 7 months, or whatever I did, and then the number of visits that she did, so it turned out she's only seeing about 12 patients a day.
**Florence Shum: **So, that's why there was, like, a drop of, the number of patients you were seeing, which then led me to think about, okay, what is the issue? Why is she seeing less patients, right? So, one is that, like, some no-shows.
**Florence Shum: **Then also, previously she would see some new patients as well, but I had, like, wanted to make sure that she is able to take, like, see new patients.
**Florence Shum: **I wanted to make sure that we're billing it properly, so that's why she wasn't seeing any new patient for, like, a couple of months. So moving forward, I think I will let her see some new patient a day, each day, like, some slots there. We have a wait list of patients, so this way, maybe we'll be able to fill those lots.
**Florence Shum: **those opening, because I look at her schedule, right, let's say a week
**Florence Shum: **In advance, right? Like, I'm looking at next week. Every day is full. Glacier has a full panel.
**Florence Shum: **But then she, with full panel, it's only, like, 21 patients. That's if every single person shows up. 21 patients.
**Florence Shum: **But she ends up seeing, like, you know, 15, 16, sometimes even less.
**Florence Shum: **So it's a lot of no-shows.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Huh.
**Florence Shum: **Like, patients just drop off the schedule.
**Florence Shum: **And then we're afraid to double book, because I don't want to…
**Florence Shum: **be overwhelming, right? There's always that, like, balance, right? Like, you wanna…
**Florence Shum: **You want your providers to be happy, not overworked.
**Florence Shum: **At the same time, you still want them to be productive.
**Florence Shum: **So that is the… Yeah, it's… it's…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Definitely a balance,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And so part of the curiosity can be, you know, are there certain times of the day that tend to be more…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That, that no-show, or do you know that, like,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's probably… day of is hard to put people in. You probably don't have a lot of same-day sort of work and stuff.
**Florence Shum: **No, so we… basically, we… Try to…
**Florence Shum: **put patient on, like, from the day before. I think previously, in the past, we were able to do that for new patients, but follow-up is, like, you know, kind of hard to, like, find someone, you know? I think, unless…
**Florence Shum: **You know, if it's, like, a primary care office, then they can say, okay, this is your annual, like, the reminder stuff, then you can kind of tell patients to come in, but it's a little harder for us to do it that way, to keep track.
**Florence Shum: **But that's why the only thing to fill up those spots easier would be, like, new patients, if they're willing to come in.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah. We bill under her anyway, like, she's billing… like, we're billing under herself, so…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Interesting. I… but I love… I love the pieces that you've already identified. I love that you've recognized you had to take a bigger step back and see. You've got that metric of number of patients,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And… You're pulling the waitlist, which is great.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So you're picking up those ones, at least the day of, you may just have to say that that is, and you may have to look at policies around those no-shows, which is hard, but you own the practice, so you can really set those boundaries.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You know, choose whether or not
**Jennie Eckstrom: **you know, there's… there's a financial cost to that. Do you have a…
**Florence Shum: **I, I do, I do, like… I mean, I think we're pretty lenient. I, I would only…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **We're ridiculously lenient, so…
**Florence Shum: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Whatever you're doing is better than we are.
**Florence Shum: **So we say, like, if you have two… Like, no-shows?
**Florence Shum: **Are we scheduling, like, two no-shows or rescheduling, then you need to pay a rescheduling fee before we put you on the schedule.
**Florence Shum: **Basically.
**Florence Shum: **And we only charge, like, $25.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so you probably have some room in there if you wanted to be, you know, if you really had those habitual…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Folks.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, I mean, this is really just so, like.
**Florence Shum: **It's really annoying to see… keep seeing these patients that are on the schedule, but they never show up, you know?
**Florence Shum: **Don't make an appointment! Don't take up a slot!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **So that's… And occasionally, patients actually do pay. They actually do pay. I'm like, okay.
**Florence Shum: **This is really so that we want to make sure they come.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right.
**Florence Shum: **They… when they do show up. I mean, when they do make the appointment. I… whether they call back.
**Florence Shum: **When they are sure they're available, then to take up a slot.
**Florence Shum: **That's why I hate those, you know, I use, ZocDoc, like, a long time ago when I first started.
**Florence Shum: **When it's so easy for patients to make appointments, it's even higher no-show rate.
**Florence Shum: **Right? Like, there's no credit card, you know, on file yet, right? They're not really your patient, so nobody's gonna leave the credit card.
**Florence Shum: **So then… and then… and then we still have to eat the cost.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, there… there is, you know, I mean, you… you… there… there isn't until there is, right? There isn't a credit card on file until there's… I mean, when you book a spa appointment, you have to put your credit card down.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, I don't know if ZocDoc, like, you know…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't know that platform.
**Florence Shum: **watch.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, is that what you use?
**Florence Shum: **I only tried in the very beginning. I mean, ZocDoc, I tried it in my previous practice, that was, like, more than 10 years ago, like, 13, like, when it was not so popular, when they…
**Florence Shum: **it was, like, they didn't implement that. It was just, like, a monthly cost per provider in each practice, and the patient, it just… the ease of making an appointment, and things like that. But then, because they got so big.
**Florence Shum: **Then they would charge, basically, for each new patient who books their appointment, regardless if they come or not.
**Florence Shum: **So they were still charged, which is kind of ridiculous. And then I have seen, like.
**Florence Shum: **you know, on Facebook groups and stuff, people complain about it. Also, they charge different pricing depending on your specialty.
**Florence Shum: **So for, like, you know, maybe a plastic surgeon or somebody, they would do, like, $50 per new patient that they book.
**Florence Shum: **Like, it wasn't cheap. I forgot how much mine was, $30 or $50, I can't remember, but it was… like, it can add up.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, absolutely.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **So… What about you, Vanika? I don't want to.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Oh!
**vin: **So for me, this… I'm not used to,
**vin: **We have… I've, like, we have a big issue.
**vin: **And, with a… with a billing section, and also with…
**vin: **Turns out we were doing,
**vin: **Even the copayment, we were doing it the wrong way, so that it wasn't connecting with the invoices, so it's a… it's a huge…
**vin: **Can of worms that has been opened.
**vin: **And the more I look at it, the more worms are coming out. So…
**vin: **This is really good, though, to, kind of, like, see the trends and, like, look at the…
**vin: **the types of visits and things like that. However, when I try to print even my revenue per, like, service.
**vin: **Like, the biller is billing it by specific codes, and we don't use that many codes. In psychiatry, nothing was pulling up. So, my reports don't… like, the only way that I know what revenue I'm having is to look at my… what's coming in the bank, but, like.
**vin: **like, just looking at it from a, like, at a glance, I can't…
**Florence Shum: **Unless, you know, the… we add up everything that the biller.
**vin: **ease, putting on the, on the, on the Google Sheet.
**vin: **I don't know what service is more profitable.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**vin: **Which is a big problem.
**vin: **Aw, and… So, I'm… I've, I've emailed…
**vin: **the… because the problem is that we have… I have the EHR and then a different clearinghouse.
**vin: **And then the biller, puts the payments in the chart, but not in a timely manner.
**vin: **And… but she retrieves those payments from the second EHR… from the second, like, the clearinghouse.
**vin: **So there's no direct connection there, and they don't integrate with each other. And some of them, though, are not directly in that claims, in the… in the other clearinghouse, because it's posted on availability, so there's a mixture of different places she's gathering that information from.
**vin: **So, I have somebody that's, like, an external biller, so I've… I've had a consultant, and the consultant knows somebody that, bills, that's familiar with the other clearinghouse and my EHR.
**vin: **So I'm having them kind of, like, audit, like, what we're doing.
**vin: **And then we'll have to figure out, okay, like, if I want to just look at a glance, see, like, okay, I've had so many visits.
**vin: **Which one is even more profitable.
**vin: **where do I… because the… I was gonna just manually add it, but then it's, like, different insurances are paying different amounts. It's going to take me forever to just add those up.
**vin: **But, if the two systems don't reconcile, then the biller will probably have to… I'll have to instruct her to separate those until we get everything integrated, because it's important to know.
**vin: **What is coming.
**vin: **What is coming and where it's coming from.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yes.
**vin: **So, it's like, in one way, it's exciting, and in another way, it's like, stop coming out, worms! I can't take it!
**vin: **Enough!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But the excellent thing is that you have opened that can, right? Because the cam could have sat on the shelf for another 6 to 12 months, right?
**vin: **Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But you're asking the questions.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And you're involving the people. So if we took a step back, can you… can you… do you know, like, your total revenue and your total expenses?
**vin: **we just finished redoing the books, and yes, I would know that, because we've done the 2025, I have the books for that. I don't have it by the month, but.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It doesn't matter.
**vin: **I can easily look that up, yes. I know how to go on QuickBooks and at least make the report for the quarter and the month now, which I… which wasn't accurate before.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Good.
**vin: **this is… he did a much more meticulous job, so I had to change bookkeepers.
**vin: **The interim as well, but this guy is much more precise and on top of it.
**vin: **So, my numbers… like, I just met with my CP, and I need to…
**vin: **amend my taxes. So even the number that I thought I knew, at least, even that was incorrect from the get-go.
**vin: **So, it's good to know that, and good to know that, okay, these were where we were falling behind, so the numbers are getting more accurate, but also, what else can we do now to reinforce those numbers and be able to
**vin: **Like, separate them,
**vin: **and kind of look at the numbers and plan forward. So, for example, like, even though we worked less days in December, December was more profitable, and we saw more patients.
**vin: **even though I thought my schedule… so my, the number of patients I saw was about the same, but the fact that we didn't have as much TMSN's bravado in January.
**vin: **the revenue was much less. The number of visits was much less, so I need to count on those systems. At least that's what's telling me, like, I can be working a lot more, but that doesn't mean I have to be working more smart.
**vin: **to make the numbers work, which I prefer than working too much.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But that's part of what you're doing, is you're figuring out, for you as a sole proprietor, like, where is your energy best served? And that may be best served financially.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It may be best served, like, in terms of the things that light you up, that you really enjoy, that may or may not be as profitable, you know, financially, but…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But you are… you're… you're on the right track of understanding what are the levers that are… that are working in your company.
**vin: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **As you, as you are looking at your EMR and how you can pull reports.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **How long have you been on this EMR?
**vin: **From the get-go, I've always used this EMR.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that's… you've been in practice for 3 years?
**vin: **Yeah, but, very slow initially for the first year, so 4 years now.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**vin: **Well, yeah, 3 years. 2026 will be the 4th year.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, okay. So, and if you can… can… do you have somebody who can help you actually link up those diagnoses that you're using now, so that you… and the CPT code, so you can actually pull?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That data going forward.
**vin: **So the person that,
**vin: **tried to do it, couldn't, so we're in communication with the EHR now to see, like, okay, we have
**vin: **Even though the billers… even though we have a separate clearinghouse, the invoices were generated from this EHR, and the code is there, so why is it not pulling any numbers? So there's something… well, maybe there's a settings thing, it's just, you know, so I'm waiting for an answer from them.
**vin: **And then, because the biller, the outside biller has worked in both systems, they are still kind of creating a proposal for me, so I haven't… she hasn't… she hasn't done any work yet.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But I'm hoping that she will have some answers as well, and…
**vin: **together we can figure something out, and even if we can't figure out for the past years, but from, let's say, you know, mid-March onwards, we'll be able to do that. And even for the past years, the biller can just, you know, create reports based on what she has, however.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Or you just know on a go-forward basis.
**vin: **Yeah, exactly.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So if it makes you feel any better, so we've been on our current EMR for 17 years, but when we, when we first went to it, we have an in-house lab, and we have both patient payments and insurance payments. And when they generated the original report.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **The report was only… in our old clearinghouse… in our old, practice management software, it was… it included both patient payments and…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And insurance payments, because… because of STARC provisions, we couldn't take directly our income for lab. It had to go back and be spread out equally. So we had to be able to pull that… those revenues out of each individual provider's revenue so that it could be shared equally.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So when we went to the new EMR, The initial report…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I don't… as ECW is helping us set it up, they only pulled the insurance payments, they did not pull the patient payments.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And I had this spreadsheet that I was running. This was at a time where we really did not have any financial transparency. There was, like, 3 senior partners who really got to see the financials, and no one else. But I would take my month end, and I would spread it out, so I knew what the lab revenues should be on a pro rata share.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And I saw that it dropped, like, 30%. And I followed it for 2 or 3 months, and I said, guys, there is something wrong here. And, initially, our partnership just… they didn't want to deal with it. And so, they said, well, we'll just take a month and sort of, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **do a gestalt to even up.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But because we didn't go back and fix the problem, it actually persisted for several more years.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And so we ultimately did go back, change the report, and evened up all the dollars, but I guess all that to say that even in a really large organization, that type of reporting mismatch, so just the same thing that, you know, that… that…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Florence is doing in terms of making sure that the report generates the same information
**Jennie Eckstrom: **from more than one platform, you'll definitely want to use that system of checks and balances. So, it may be worth, in a one-month setting, to go through and do a… have, you know, have a biller do a manual reconcile from those claims that you've sent out.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Just to make sure that the data that you're pulling on those reports is accurate.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Florence Shum: **This process is very overwhelming.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It is! It is!
**Florence Shum: **I mean… I'm only, like, one person. Now I have, like, two other providers, right? But, like…
**Florence Shum: **And I'm like, if I can figure this out, like, how am I gonna manage, let's say, like, 10 more providers? Just, like, you know, like, I need to make sure that I know how to run certain reports, and my manager
**Florence Shum: **had some idea, like, because we were kind of, like, just learning on our own, almost, right? Because I use Athena, Athena 1.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So it's very robust.
**Florence Shum: **But at the same time, it's also kind of complicated. It's not like you press one button, and then you can just…
**Florence Shum: **you know, click to see what you… what I want to see, but there's, like, hundreds of options, like, I don't even know what I…
**Florence Shum: **need to see, like, weekly basis, monthly basis, for it to make sense to me, right? What I need to see. So…
**Florence Shum: **But finally, I feel like we have at least
**Florence Shum: **Some concept of, okay, each provider, how much… how many patients we see, or each,
**Florence Shum: **like, a CPT code, how much, like, it generates?
**Florence Shum: **And then across different insurances to see there's a drop.
**Florence Shum: **Right? Or something like that.
**Florence Shum: **And last year, that was, maybe May of last year, so I started hiring, we hired this…
**Florence Shum: **third party.
**Florence Shum: **They're called superscript.
**Florence Shum: **And basically, it's a new… it's kind of like a new startup company.
**Florence Shum: **Right now they, I think they have more, they started out in New York, they're based in New York, so they work with, a few practices in New York.
**Florence Shum: **But what they are…
**Florence Shum: **we're selling is that they have the abilities, all these young… it's a group of young
**Florence Shum: **code… coders, I guess? Like, programmers, software, like, engineers. They basically, have a way… so you know how usually we get in touch with the clearinghouses when we post?
**Florence Shum: **Right? When we submit out claims.
**Florence Shum: **But they are… they… they said that they are able to go into clearinghouses to retrieve information about the patient's insurances in real time, so that we… so that we know exactly how much copayment and deductible that they have.
**Florence Shum: **So…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That's eligibility checking in real time, is what you're talking about.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, real time, yes, and…
**Florence Shum: **At first, when they said that, you know, they're very confident it would be… they would be accurate about that, if they are wrong.
**Florence Shum: **they would pay me for the difference. So, let's say they say, you know, normally, yes, like, they're guaranteeing that. So, for a patient, let's say, normally, we would collect $20 copay, right? We know this patient's, like, $20, but then they… the claim… but then their system says, no, the patient has no copay.
**Florence Shum: **So, we wait for the EOB, if it comes back that the patient does have a copay, they pay us, not the patient.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Wow.
**Florence Shum: **So, because of this system, at first I was a little, like, skeptical, like, how well it would work.
**Florence Shum: **But after, like.
**Florence Shum: **you know, over 8 months now, right? Like, May… like, middle of May, early June, I guess? Like, 8 months now? 9 months, almost, a year.
**Florence Shum: **My collection, my patient collection went from, like.
**Florence Shum: **mid-80s, I would say, to now, like, 96%.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Wow.
**Florence Shum: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So How… and how are they charging? Are they charging a percent of collections, or…
**Florence Shum: **At first, this is interesting. At first, they wanted to charge
**Florence Shum: **Per… like, oh, at first they had a scheduled fee of, like,
**Florence Shum: **A dollar, $5, a set amount per patient.
**Florence Shum: **on certain types of claim, I forgot now. And then, or a percentage, like, you know, 10%, or whatever, of, like, let's say if it's,
**Florence Shum: **cash patient, right? Like, they would charge, like, 10%, or some kind of fee scheduled that way. But because of patient population we see, they're mostly managed Medicaid patients.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **the underserved.
**Florence Shum: **So they realized that, and they were very fair, they realized that it's not… it doesn't make sense, like, it's too costly for me, because… Right.
**Florence Shum: **you know, I'm collecting zero from the patient, but I still have to pay a fee to them.
**Florence Shum: **So then it didn't make sense, so now we agree on, like, a flat fee each month.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Florence Shum: **So, that's what I'm doing.
**Florence Shum: **And, and it's been really helpful, and they're…
**Florence Shum: **good at helping me also generating some reports, too, because they have all my data, like, how much.
**Florence Shum: **I can collect and stuff, so then that's why they're able to help me generate reports on, like.
**Florence Shum: **the payment collective from each insurance. It's, like, very hard to pull these kind of things, and, like, my manager has been doing it, and then basically, so the way she's doing it and the way they're doing it, we can kind of see if it matches, right?
**Florence Shum: **you know, a couple of dollar, $100 here and there is not a big deal, but, you know, at least it's not a big discrepancy, where it's, like, thousands of dollars off. So it was good to know that they're doing the report, like, pretty accurately, and it's much easier for them to run the report.
**Florence Shum: **I mean, these people are, like, data analysis, they do that all day long, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Do you have to pay them for those reports, or is that a part.
**Florence Shum: **Now, that is just part of the agreement.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Nice.
**Florence Shum: **Yes, and then they also do intake forms, where I can give them my intake forms, and then they just generate it into the iPad, and then to help with patient check-in. They do minder texts.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Are they then… so they're also then a,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **a CRM, a custom relations module, then, as well, in terms of that, or is it… is…
**Florence Shum: **I guess so, right? Because they can do the check… basically, they're taking care of all the check-in components.
**Florence Shum: **Or the check-in component.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that superscript?
**Florence Shum: **Yep, it's called Superscript.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Interesting. Is that only with Athena, or do they do that.
**Florence Shum: **No, so right now, they started with Athena, and they actually said that they were gonna…
**Florence Shum: **include, they were gonna go and look into eClinical work, so I could definitely ask them about that, because.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **they have to know the EMR really well, to go in with the EMR really well, to do things.
**Florence Shum: **to pull something like that. As you can imagine, so they're working kind of, like, by EMR.
**Florence Shum: **Figure it out, like, the software component, and for everything to match.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah. Do you guys collect your insurance information at the time that you schedule the appointment, or at the time that they check in?
**Florence Shum: **We try to… Collect essay scheduling.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So then, then you can do that, yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Right, and then, you know, but sometimes patients change their insurance in the middle of the year, or, you know, and then they… yeah, that… that happens, but yeah, for the most part, we, you know, do that. And then, so they check the eligibility, the co-payments, you know, whenever… basically, as soon as the…
**Florence Shum: **insurance information, it's there, like, they start checking right away. It's, like, automatic.
**Florence Shum: **like…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **That's amazing.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, so I'm kind of, like, hands-off, like, I don't know how it works, but as long as it works…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And you… you don't need to know how everything works.
**Florence Shum: **Later.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You need to check the data, you need to double-check and make sure the data looks good, but that's amazing.
**vin: **Can I ask what is the flat fee for that?
**Florence Shum: **So, I… they're charging me, $999, I wanna say? Like, under $1,000 a month.
**vin: **per month.
**Florence Shum: **Per month. Per month.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And is… that's probably… are you at…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **How many patient visits do you have for your… are you…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because you've got 4 providers, are you at… are you at…
**Florence Shum: **Like, because besides.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Provider visits, I also have testing visits.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **So I do…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Are you about 1,500 visits a month, or are you higher than that for your clinic?
**Florence Shum: **I don't think I do 1500 visits a month with everything.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You have 4… you have…
**Florence Shum: **Three, three providers.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **3 providers. Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then you have your ancillary services, you have your… Your service line.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **EMG and EEG and…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, so… I… you know, that's a good question.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No.
**Florence Shum: **How do I…
**vin: **And that's not.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So you're probably a dollar or $1.50 an encounter with that flat fee, is about where you're at.
**Florence Shum: **Maybe, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You think? Maybe not… certainly not 2 bucks at…
**Florence Shum: **No, and also it… Well, right now, they are not saying that it would be increased, too.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, no.
**Florence Shum: **So, the more patients, the more visits we have, the cheaper it gets.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And how often do they have to pay you back?
**Florence Shum: **So… how often? So it's, like, ongoing, basically, based on when the EM, the EOB comes back.
**Florence Shum: **Right. So.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Was it a couple hundred bucks a month, or is it just…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, probably. It's, like, the errors, it's getting less.
**Florence Shum: **They are… the system is getting smarter.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **The accuracy is better.
**Florence Shum: **So it's definitely, I think in the beginning, like, January, maybe there are more glitches, just because of the Medicare, like, deductible.
**Florence Shum: **And things like that, how we normally would… Collect.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Then, I think they were saying that on their system, it showed them that date that we don't need to collect, so then we probably have to wait and see.
**Florence Shum: **How… how true that is, you know, for some of those.
**Florence Shum: **So, I don't know if they… I don't know if it has to do with, like, the secondary and whatnot, so…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, are you still doing your collections in January on your Medicare, or…
**Florence Shum: **I think some. We… so basically, my, manager decides to just follow
**Florence Shum: **like, what their system says. Collect or not collect, and how much, and then we just had to retrospectively double-check if…
**Florence Shum: **You know, they are correct.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because she's saying that, well, they guarantee it anyway, so we really should be collecting 100% of patient responsibility.
**Florence Shum: **But… and then probably 96%, so the 4% is probably what they will owe us.
**Florence Shum: **You know? So, but overall, I think it's, it's been helpful.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **When did you implement that?
**Florence Shum: **May, like.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Florence Shum: **Last May. Like, less than a year.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so this is your first Q1 on it, and Q1 is the hardest time with collections, right? Because so much of it goes to patient responsibility.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And then also, like.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, Q1 is the toughest, because, like, the holiday's low, too, right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Hmm? Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **I remember when I, in my previous job, even though we were partners, so-called partners, like, we would… that's when we would have skipped paychecks.
**Florence Shum: **Literally would not have enough to pay the payroll.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I remember that.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's very painful.
**Florence Shum: **No.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **No.
**Florence Shum: **Except that, like, we would never get
**Florence Shum: **Like, we never get, the paycheck back.
**Florence Shum: **It's just…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **This is gone, yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, we ended up with that because we were the same thing, and it was super painful, because obviously you still had bills, and with the senior partners.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **they say, well, just plan, just plan ahead. And we would usually do a distribution in December, so there was some money, but it was like, oh, we'll just plan ahead. And then, ultimately, what we ended up doing is doing a guaranteed payment of 85% of our annualized.
**Florence Shum: **Collections averaged over 3 years, and then would even up on the quarter.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that took away some of that heartburn-y angst.
**Florence Shum: **well, at least you had some distribu- and this is when I was partnered, there was no distribution.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh.
**Florence Shum: **We had all the liabilities, But no profit sharing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh.
**Florence Shum: **So, I mean, that was one of the reasons why I had to.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Exactly, yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Because it's, like, no transparency, like, they give you a bunch of numbers, like.
**Florence Shum: **I don't know, I don't know what this means! I don't know what these numbers mean.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then, you know… Well, and especially if they give you that. I remember seeing, initially, I think I shared this with you, the big… it was this big green spreadsheet, ledger, and my partner, who was… at that point, I think he'd been practicing for 10 years when he recruited me, and he just showed me the revenue number that…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **like, $600-plus thousand dollars, and of course, my brain interpreted that revenue as profit. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm totally made. Not that I'm downstream.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **what that, you know, once you took all of your expenses, right? And so…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, and then.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Very easy to be swayed by practice.
**Florence Shum: **It's, like, bigger share expenses.
**Florence Shum: **Like, the malpractice, like, it's insane. Like, my malpractice was, what, like, 20-something, 30,000, right?
**Florence Shum: **Neurosurgeon is 10 times that, and that's lumped together as one, like, expense.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Mmm.
**Florence Shum: **Overhead.
**Florence Shum: **300,000 for neurosurgeon in New York.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yes, I could… well, I could see that just because of the litigious.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah. There's no torque reform.
**vin: **So, as a neurologist, your malpractice is $300,000.
**Florence Shum: **No, no, 30.
**vin: **Certainness.
**Florence Shum: **300.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, gosh, okay.
**Florence Shum: **I won't be practicing if I…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **In Montana, ours is, like, when I… I'm doing surgical, so mine's a little bit higher, because I do colonoscopies, but it started out at
**Jennie Eckstrom: **like, 16, and now we have it under… I think I'm under 9.
**Florence Shum: **Oh.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Thousand a year.
**Florence Shum: **9,000 a year?
**Florence Shum: **Wow, that's so good!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I know, I know.
**Florence Shum: **OB in New York is 150, 150,000.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and here it was 100, so when I did obstetrics,
**Florence Shum: **Mmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I was contracted through the hospital, and part of that contract was that they paid the malpractice.
**Florence Shum: **I hate for that, yes, of course.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Cause I wasn't gonna, I mean…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I did, like, 25 deliveries a year. I was not gonna pay $100,000 in a tail.
**Florence Shum: **Oh, my God. Because I think the tail was, like, $30,000 or $40,000. Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So…
**Florence Shum: **So, it really doesn't pay, it's so hard to practice the OB in New York.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so you guys are working… so, so just to summarize, so Vinika, you are enjoying your can of worms, and everything.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Is that fair?
**vin: **With ketchup and mayo, it's delicious.
**Florence Shum: **But you might…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Had you already had the, your external auditor and biller, or your biller doing the audit, was that already in the works?
**vin: **So what happened is, like, I knew my books were not right, so I got an external bookkeeper, and so now the years are… I have clean books now, and then,
**vin: **because of the question of valuation is when I… I'm like, just ask my biller about the… I was using ChatGPT to see, okay, what do they need for valuation? Like, let me at least start preparing whatever I can. And the report was so off, the AR…
**vin: **reports and the ER aging reports were so off, and I'm like, what is going on there? I know that we have two different systems, so I wasn't expecting it to be great, but it was so off that I'm like, okay, I need to start looking into that. That's when I brought the consultant in.
**vin: **he said, yep, it is a mess, let's start again. So, we are now… we changed, he… he talked to my front desk, we're doing things completely different, the way that the… because the co-pays were being…
**vin: **reported as the amount, like, the patient owes, where they actually had paid it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh…
**vin: **And then that would screw up the books, because now it looks like an asset. Like, it's inflating the valuation, so we needed to take care of that, but at the same time, it brought up a lot of the billing issues, so the back end, so the front end is being worked on now.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**vin: **Now we now need to fix the back end, so that's when he's bringing in the external biller, and they are.
**vin: **he's supposed to give me a proposal by tomorrow to see what that would look like, including a timeline of, okay, I… I don't necessarily want… I could fire my biller, but
**vin: **I… it's also on me that I haven't been looking at the reports, and I want to give her a chance, like, okay.
**vin: **We'll… this is the right way to do it.
**vin: **do it right, we'll audit, and then if that works out, great, let's continue. If not, we have to make a decision.
**vin: **And then I just, as we were talking, I just, asked, because I realized they haven't answered me, so I asked them again, like, what… what do we need to rectify?
**vin: **So I can pull those, you know, just like, this is one CPT code I'm interested in, how do I get that report? So hopefully they answer back, maybe it's, I'm hoping it's a… it's a simple thing.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But I'm thinking it has something to do with having a different clearinghouse.
**vin: **Because it's not integrated, so they can't pull the report.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, I guess the question is, can you pull the report out of each… each place and put it in a third party? Whether that's as simple as an Excel spreadsheet, if you can, like, extract your data in, like, a CSV file?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that you can…
**vin: **So the builder does that?
**vin: **So I can just, I can just look at them, like, have her do, okay, for last month, can you pull that report? This was, you know, like, and just list everything there, and then do another one where you're doing it by service line, and…
**vin: **Let me… show me what that looks like.
**vin: **Because she does it on… she puts all the payments, because I pay her a percentage, so she very meticulously writes all the payments that come in. The problem is she doesn't log what's not coming in, so invoices are being missed. Some have not… like, it didn't go through, she is not aware of it, or some are… they have been paid, but not…
**vin: **you know, it's lost somewhere, so we have a problem there, so I need her side to be fixed anyway, so in the mean, while doing that, she could probably easily
**vin: **Pull up, like, monthly, what has that been generating?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right. Well, and the claims that you need to… whether they were not clean claims, and you've got to go back and scrub them, or resubmit them, or chase them down, or they go to.
**vin: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **collections, so…
**vin: **And somebody else, like, I can have, like, if she… if, I have the… because she has, with all these…
**vin: **these things that she needs to work on, especially when we have the feedback from the external biller, even if she is not able to pull up the report, I can have my VA, for example.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Mmm.
**vin: **that data from the data she already has, because I don't want to… I would rather she focus on, okay, rebuild everything, rather than, okay, create a report for me, because there's only so many hours in a day.
**Florence Shum: **this.
**vin: **It would be more valuable for her to find out what she missed and go repeal those and appeal, whatever.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, well, because she's got a benefit to doing that, too, because there's a financial incentive. Yeah. Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm.
**vin: **But you're asking the right questions.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **there.
**vin: **Yes, what the consultant also says is, like, maybe by the end of the audit, if we can find exactly… but it's gonna be in stages, like, in the…
**vin: **in the amount of… because I had another biller before, but from the time she's been working, how… how many… if the amount of payments she's missed is quite a bit, then, it's room for negotiation as well. Maybe we cut.
**Florence Shum: **the percentage.
**vin: **managed by a certain amount, because technically she owes me that money. I didn't look at it this way, but the consultant was like, well, somebody's got to be responsible for that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Are you getting paid on collections or on claims submitted?
**vin: **on collections.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so she's only getting paid a percentage of the dollars that actually come in and are paid.
**vin: **Yes.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**vin: **So if, if she's missing it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Then, none of us gets paid.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Including her.
**vin: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**vin: **Now, I haven't audited that to see, but I'm…
**vin: **That might be something else to audit, I guess?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, you do… there are, there are metrics around that, like, of clean claims rate and things that need to get, refiled. So as you start to get more transparency there, starting to look at those in terms of, like, percentages.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You know, what claims are being submitted that are coming back to being paid? What ones are not, you know, are coming back? Why are they coming back? Are they coming back because they don't have the right demographics or the insurance information?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Is it because the coding is off? So, so really trying to then look into that information. But, starting first off.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **What's actually coming back and what isn't.
**vin: **Right, exactly. Yeah, because that'll just give you, like, a submission rate, or, like, a clean claims.
**vin: **Hmm.
**vin: **And this report, I think even the consultant can also generate these reports, too, because it would be good to have, like, another party give me the more accurate numbers.
**vin: **And then the builder then has to figure out where… and solve the problem.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Monica, like, the consulting bill, is that, like, this potentially can be another person that can, like, bill? They just do auditing, like, they just help.
**vin: **No, no, she's a biller, she's my friend's biller.
**vin: **It just happens that the consultant, who was actually only helping me with IT things, but turns out he does all of these things, he generates all these reports, he actually meets with the biller and looks at all the clean claims and things like that, and instead of the provider, so…
**vin: **He's doing it for my friend.
**vin: **who's in a different state, so I brought him in for security things, and then remember, like, then he tells me he does XYZ, and I'm like, oh, well, can you look at mine then? And then he's the one that is like, okay, well, I'm really happy with the current biller we have.
**vin: **She's been on top of things. Do you… if you need help, then let me know, and Oh…
**vin: **I've really wanted to, you know, like, have, for example, a…
**vin: **clean reports, and also, I'm finding out here and there that, like, why is an invoice missing? Or, we have the invoice, why is it that I saw this patient in November or September, why is there no payment on the EHR yet? Like, so I've been wanting to have, like, a system where
**vin: **Billurki could give me those reports, but…
**vin: **I don't know, she works in different systems in a different facility, so…
**Florence Shum: **Hmm…
**vin: **she has her way of doing things, so I need her to do it right, so we can collect that, but so that other person can hopefully share or educate what she does, which is kind of an extra cost, but it's also, like.
**Florence Shum: **Otherwise, you have to switch builder, right? Yeah, otherwise you have to switch builder again.
**vin: **Yes, exactly. Well, the other biller I switched a long time ago, like, more than 3 years ago, so it…
**Florence Shum: **So you've had this billet for 3 years already.
**vin: **Yeah.
**vin: **And initially, she was really on top of it, and that's why it's like, oh gosh, I don't have time to meet, and money's coming in, and she also kind of became complacent. So… but when she realizes there's a problem, she's gonna be calling the insurance, she fights with them, she's that type of person, so…
**vin: **I'm like, okay, maybe it's just she doesn't know, she doesn't have a systems down, that's why it's falling through, so let's give her a system, and then…
**vin: **give her a chance. Otherwise, it's like, I should really just fire her. But then again, it's like starting over from scratch, and then…
**vin: **Then we have two systems and all of that. We're trying to become one system, but I've had problems with that EHR, like, the Optum Clearinghouse.
**vin: **So I'm trying to make sure… because I almost… they also integrate with Change Healthcare, and I tried to… I was gonna just… I chose Change Healthcare, but the customer service was so bad that we decided to keep the two different systems, and the claim was being submitted, then we couldn't track it. So she was actually submitting paper claims for a while, and then we decided, no.
**vin: **Let's just keep two different systems.
**vin: **That's why I haven't integrated, but, Charm has Optum Clearinghouse as well, so if… if I can get things
**vin: **more, if things go through better, because we're doing things on the front end now, then I'm just gonna use Optum, and then everything will be in one place. But right now, in the middle of everything, changing that as well will…
**vin: **not be… Even from a valuation perspective, it's not recommended.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because then they'll be like, well, you're hiding… you knew this was coming.
**vin: **And you're hiding all the data. I have to do with what I have now, but just optimize the system.
**Florence Shum: **You have… what's your EMR? Charm? It's called CHARM?
**vin: **Charm, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Is that psychiatry-specific?
**vin: **No, but it's very, kind of, user-friendly.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Very easy to implement.
**vin: **And it's grown quite a bit, but the customer support is still kind of lacking, but my friend uses it, and they don't… they've implemented it well, it integrates well, they're able to pull the reports they need, so I think if used properly.
**vin: **it's… it has potential, so I don't necessarily want to change EHR right away as well. Oh, no.
**Florence Shum: **That's a nightmare, dude!
**vin: **I thought of it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And it's expensive.
**Florence Shum: **Oh my gosh.
**Florence Shum: **No.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, good. So, we're coming sort of at the top of the hour, but I'd love to just,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Maybe hear the pieces, the sort of the next steps that you are…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **are working on. It sounded like…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that, Florence, from your standpoint, you're getting a pretty good grasp on the one PA that you have.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, so I'm… so my next thing is, like, should I be doing that for, like, each
**Florence Shum: **testing procedures, because I remember you had mentioned about, like, actually how much one exam room is actually generating, right? And, what's the cost of, like, doing certain tests in that one room?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so that's where, sort of, the next step for you would really be to start, before we get into the profitability of how you're using each exam room, actually just start to look at that overhead piece. And again, just like the same way we looked at the, sort of, the top-line revenue.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **our expenses, and what's our profitability. With the… with the overhead, start with the biggest picture you can get at. So you have…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Have you… you haven't opened up your new space yet, right? Did you sort out your elevator in the water?
**Florence Shum: **It's inspection tomorrow!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yay!
**Florence Shum: **Well, fingers crossed.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, you may start with the other…
**Florence Shum: **Oh, I'm gonna just… yeah, looking at my current space, too. I need to understand before I…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Exactly. So something that you… that's familiar to you, you… you have a Gestalt, and again.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Taking a step back and looking at that over the full 12-month period, because there are going to be some expenses, like your property taxes that show up, and things that show up that won't necessarily be seen on a monthly basis, but you can still annualize.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **that expense. So I think that's.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **The next step for you is to try to step back, because you'll still want that overhead number, a variation of that, to pop into the bottom part of your profit and loss on your employee.
**Florence Shum: **So my… I think my bookkeeper just… like, she's… Almost finishing with the…
**Florence Shum: **Like, doing the books for 2025.
**Florence Shum: **So I'm waiting for her to finish that, so that I can have, like, a clearer picture of.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **expenses, and…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **And things like that, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so starting with that, that big picture, and then you can start to say, okay, well then, you know, and again, it doesn't need to be finite 100% down to a penny, but we're just trying to get an idea
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So that you can then have those numbers as you're evaluating how you're using your space.
**Florence Shum: **So then, I should be doing that for, like, I'm gonna do it for my junior PA, and then each testing, like, the same way that I'm calculating.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yes, and so ultimately, that's what we'll do. We'll sort of… we'll step out through each of the service lines, so each of your providers.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **each of your service lines, and… and you'll… you'll see that there is some… there's some expense that's just expense, right? That you can't necessarily get around. You can't, like, leverage it to make… to make revenue. So… but that still falls into that bottom line expense.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Or, you know, in your profit and loss. You had all your income up on top.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then we're gonna start working on those numbers below.
**Florence Shum: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Vinika, what's next for you?
**vin: **I'm still going to, like, I'd be curious to know just
**vin: **at a glance, let's say my most profitable month and my least profitable month, at least if I can have the reports on these, and I can ask the biller for what she has, and have my VA work on, like, making those reports for me.
**vin: **But I know for sure, and I've been avoiding that, that one of my facilities is much bigger.
**vin: **And I am definitely underusing it. Since the can of worms is open, might as well just stick it to my face, like, tell me how much I'm losing by just staying open. I would like to know the numbers, because I thought, okay.
**vin: **Calculating that will be much more objective.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **so that I can at least start looking. Maybe I find somebody, maybe I don't.
**vin: **to share the space, or temporarily, you know, come use some of those offices, because most of the time it's not being used, because most of the time at the other office, so…
**vin: **That could just…
**vin: **And just when I looked at the numbers, I was like, okay, so for…
**vin: **January, the other place fell by, like, 30% for the supervado visits. This one fell by 75%. I don't even wanna… and the overhead is much more, so it would be good to have, like, an idea of how much…
**vin: **That discrepancy is.
**vin: **Yeah. And some rooms we, like, that we hardly use or never use at a certain time, like, I… I could definitely lease those out, or do something.
**vin: **Or provide another service, or something like that.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And so that same idea, just even stepping out and saying, before you do a deep dive of how you're using each of those rooms, like, what does the revenue in Site A generate?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And what does the revenue in Site B generate?
**vin: **Yeah. Right?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because with you, you're having to decide, like, how do I physically put myself in multiple places, or have the staff
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And I know the second location, you had told me at one point that there were patients that liked it because it was closer to them, or closer to the hospital, and so they preferred not to come to your other site.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that there may be strategic ways for you to keep both sites available, but also make sure that you are
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Minimizing your exposure.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **From a financial standpoint.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Good.
**vin: **Yay! Might as well, might as well know.
**Florence Shum: **I just want to say, Vinika, like, the way you talk about, like, the… the…
**Florence Shum: **The problem, the report, like, You're like, yeah, that's how… I'm gonna just do that, like…
**Florence Shum: **It's with such, like, grades, like, okay, it's just another problem, you're, like, so seasoned, like…
**Florence Shum: **just another thing, we can get through it. I love that. I love that, because I'm more, like, stressed, like, even if I can just, like, when I saw that there was discrepancy between the reports, I'm like, what?
**Florence Shum: **But I'm just so stressed about that one component, like, let alone, like, if I…
**Florence Shum: **sometimes I also still feel like I'm not really sure what I'm doing in terms of, like, if I'm… how profitable we are with certain, like, procedure and whatnot. Like, even with my P, I had it for 4 years, and this is really when I finally realized
**Florence Shum: **okay, yeah, she is, like, helping me, because for the longest time, I have a sense that I know I'm not losing money.
**Florence Shum: **you know, I'm happy with that, my intuition is, like, she's helping me, she's doing her work, and I'm happy, but…
**Florence Shum: **Now I actually have the numbers.
**vin: **To back that up.
**Florence Shum: **So I've been…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Doing it!
**vin: **Yeah, I mean, like, it's amazing, like, to have…
**vin: **Like, the numbers or the data point.
**Florence Shum: **So the, like, I've always been, like, avoiding it and seeing, like.
**vin: **numbers are a headache. Numbers means more work. Numbers means, like, it's just a fancy thing that, you know, is not necessary because we're open and money's coming in, so why are we stressing about that so much? But I think numbers are our friends at the end of the day.
**vin: **And, and yeah, I may look calm now, but yeah, I was freaking out too, and then… and when we were… we did the introduction meeting last week with that external builder and the consultant, and he was saying… he was kind of shaking his head at some point, and I'm like, oh my gosh.
**vin: **what if the auditor doesn't want to even come because he's such a mess, and I'm like, it's not as bad as he's saying, and he's like…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But you're not avoiding it.
**vin: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And that, to be able to have that… that courage to face it head on, and say, I mean, you're gonna find… you're gonna find some skeletons and cobwebs and all the things.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Right? So, you will. But… But until you actually take that step to look.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You don't know what you don't know, so…
**Florence Shum: **Right, exactly.
**vin: **Yes, yes, exactly. And it… and that… that's the…
**vin: **rewarding piece about it. It's the, like, there's… if we survived with all this mess, then what will knowing the numbers and acting on them do for us?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **100%.
**Florence Shum: **Exactly. Yeah.
**vin: **And then go to meditation class in the evening.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **You gotta leave it, like, clear your mind, right?
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, so we're meeting Monday at,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **8 Eastern, 6 Mountain, right? You're Mountain, right? Vinnika?
**vin: **Mountain, yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay, perfect.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Alright.
**Florence Shum: **Sounds good, guys.
**vin: **Thank you so much for meeting with us extra.
**vin: **Thank you for meeting with us.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Oh, absolutely! So let me know what, what works, and as questions come up, I want to be… I want to have these spaces, whether it's, you know, one-on-one. I think that the daytime didn't really work, and it didn't surprise me, but I figured if it did, I was going to use my
**Jennie Eckstrom: **my non-clinical day, but I think looking forward, really, now that… now that we have
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Elaine's stuff on the calendar, really a, a Wednesday or Thursday night…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **most weeks is… I do have availability, so.
**vin: **And I think, March onwards, she's changing to Wednesday now.
**Florence Shum: **Right, yeah,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **March…
**Florence Shum: **Oh, no, no, March is still… March is still Tuesdays.
**vin: **First Tuesday!
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Tuesday. Yeah, so through March…
**vin: **Oh, okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **And then when we get to April, I ended up getting one of the ginormous, big-ass calendar.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Because… yeah, anyway.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But… because I need.
**vin: **What does it look like? Show us a green…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Here, let me… let me take off my… my background so that you can see it, because…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Let's see, how do I do… adjust background?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **None.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **I stole my daughter's room, because that way my dog can't kill my…
**vin: **Oh my gosh, that's… I need this.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, so it has… it has… so that's… it's…
**vin: **You know, it's big.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So it has places to write, and then it also…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It has, like, the whole year at a glance.
**vin: **Wow.
**Florence Shum: **Oh, that's good, okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So, I figured since I didn't have to pay for the other one, I could pay for this one.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**vin: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's ginormous, too.
**vin: **It's awesome.
**Florence Shum: **It's also called…
**Jennie Eckstrom: **It's the big-ass calendar. This is their… the big-ass planner, so it's the… it's the planner companion…
**vin: **live, baby.
**Florence Shum: **Hmm, got it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **But it also, you know, then that way, I… it just… if… I don't know, I'm just… I chase planners, because they make me happy, but.
**vin: **I have a planner addiction.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, me too. So, anyway, but it lets me just see everything, so…
**Florence Shum: **Thank you.
**vin: **Q, yes.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, I mean, for me, Mondays and Thursdays, I think, are good.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, and Monday, for the most part, especially in March, I think we'll just sort of take it month by month. So.
**vin: **Me too, actually, Mondays and Thursdays, now that I think about it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Okay.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Well, what we could do, interesting.
**vin: **Fridays, but… Yeah, let's not do Fridays.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **In theory, it sounds like a good idea.
**vin: **But it's not, yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **In actuality, it's crazy. Okay. Well,
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So Mondays or Wednesdays, so I'll just…
**vin: **Mondays or Thursdays?
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Mondays or Thursdays, that's correct.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Today's Thursday.
**vin: **Yes.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **So what I'll probably do is I'll just… I hope you guys don't mind, but that's why I'm leveraging my VA, where I can just say, hey, can you reach out and see if one of these works, and we'll go for that.
**vin: **Great, yeah, I love it.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah.
**Florence Shum: **Yeah, oh my god, I was like, I almost, like…
**Florence Shum: **hop on at 6 o'clock, because I didn't realize it was the Mountain Time.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Yeah, I had to get home from work, so…
**Florence Shum: **I know, I was like, oh my god! It was… it was delightful.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **shake off all my, like, clinic juju. I was like, I'm not taking that in this call, so…
**Florence Shum: **Yeah.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Ugh.
**Florence Shum: **Sounds good.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Alright, you guys, have a great weekend, and I'll see you Monday.
**vin: **Thank you, see you Monday.
**Florence Shum: **Okay. Bye.
**Jennie Eckstrom: **Alright, bye.